Posted on 04/17/2014 11:35:37 AM PDT by SkyPilot
U2 frontman Bono talks about his faith and answers the question "Who is Jesus?" in the video below. Click play to watch.
Link Here with Video (2 mins 46 secs)
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
You never even to the ones I posted that answered your question, per your last response to me indicating the passages you did read.
Here’s two for you:
Is. 49:6: And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Is. 65:1: I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
If you ever are serious about your learning, let me know.
No, no, not at all. Those were dangerous times, and he probably loved his country and believed that if he could just unite the Jews and stop them squabbling amongst themselves, he could create a force that would throw off foreign rule. In any time, in any place, this is dangerous. Revolutionaries get killed pretty regularly. It doesn't mean they're all crazy. I don't think our Founding Fathers were crazy, but I know what happened to many who signed that Declaration.
Second, your construct that Christianity made no sense because Hebrews were expecting a Kingdom to be established. The statement is true but it is only a subset of the entire biblical record in the old testament.
In your modern-day interpretation, the Old Testament has many references that you can now see as parallels to the New Testament. But that the time, to the Jews, most of those verses would not have been taken that way. I'm trying to isolate what a Jew living in Jerusalem under Roman rule just before Jesus appeared would think of the prophecy.
The bible does not start with Moses and Mt Sinai. The current age biblical history begins with Noah followed by Abraham.The first covenant was made by God with Noah in that God promises extended to all life on earth. The covenant with Abraham was a promise for the whole world and describes God’s intentions: Gen 12:3 and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Right. And again, you are looking at that with hindsight. But what would a Jew of that time have thought? He'd have thought that the entire world would eventually know God as the Jews did (i.e., be Jewish.)
You make the same error in arriving at your premise twice in your thinking. You find a subset of something to be your premise without considering that your have narrowed your premise to exclude other possibilities. Or you think you have discovered a new population but it is merely a subset.
No, I'm simply a one-thing-at-a-time debater. When I talk with others, I want us to establish a mutual starting point. We have to find something we both interpret the same way or there is no starting point. Right now I'm trying to see if anyone here can meet me at a very simple, very defined starting point.
The second error in your thinking is a process one. You have stated your premise and your logic that by definition excludes any evidence that contradicts. You accept parts of the NT as true but exclude parts that you believe are false. If we are working with a premise that documents have been significantly altered we are done with them as a source. If we establish that someone is lying, their testimony has no value or worse it is misleading. Regarding the OT, you accept your interpretation of the OT but exclude from evidence anything that departs from it.
Not exactly. I don't accept ANY part of the NT as unquestionably true. I accept that who ever wrote those things wrote them for certain reasons. It was written much later, so it's rather like the movie Titanic as to the real event: there is probably a lot of truth, but there's also drama and fiction, and my goal is to figure out what is most likely fairly accurate and what isn't. Do you understand?
I'm not trying to tell you what MY beliefs are, I'm trying to help us all reconstruct what a Jew in Jerusalem under Roman rule just before Jesus' time would believe. Do you understand? Let's look through this list.
1. Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem —Micah 5?2 (Yes, a Jew of that era would recognize this as a sure sign of the Messiah.)
2. Messiah was to be born of a virgin — Isaiah 7:14(No. A Jew of this time would read that as the sign that a certain battle would be won. If you read the whole chapter, it's a sign about a certain situation, not about Messiah.)
3.Messiah was to be a prophet like Moses— Deut 18:15,18,19(No, this would have been seen as merely instructions on how to recognize a prophet. If you look at the last verse, 22, it says that if the prophet's words come true, then he's real. Not about the Messiah.)
4. Messiah was to enter Jerusalem in triumph — Zech 9:9(Yes, this one looks good. Especially as two verses before it, it says that he will be governor, and two verses after it suggests he will negotiate peace treaties with "heathens."
5. Messiah was to be rejected by His own people — Isaiah 53:1,3, Psalm 118:22(No, Isaiah is God's description of how Zion would be treated by other nations. Read Chapters 52-53 all together.)
6.Messiah would be betrayed by one of his followers—Psalm 41:9(No. This is just a prayer for when you're feeling low.)
7.Messiah was to be tried and condemned — Isaiah 53:8 8. Messiah was to be silent before his accusers —Isaiah 53:7 9.Messiah was to be struck and spat on — Isaiah 50:6 (See #5)
10. Messiah was to be mocked and insulted — Psalm 22:7,8 11. Messiah was to die by crucifixion — Psalm 22:14, 16,17(No, again, just a song or prayer for general unhappiness. Not a prophecy.)
12. Messiah was to suffer with criminals and pray for his enemies — Isaiah 53:12(See #5)
13. Messiah was to be given vinegar and gall — Psalm 69:21 14. Others were to cast lots of Messiah’s garment— Psalm 22:18(No, the Psalms were not seen as prophecies at the time, just songs or poems written about misfortunes and heartbreak in general.)
15. Messiah’s bones were not to be broken — Exodus 12:46(No, these are rules for their new nation.)
16. Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin — Isaiah 53: 5,6,8,10,11,12 (See #5)
17. Messiah was to be raised from the dead — Psalm 16:10(No, this is just a list of the things they believed God had promised them.)
18. Messiah is now at God’s right Han — Psalm 110:1(Kind of. They believed that Israel's king would be blessed.)
Again, I am not trying to choose which ones WERE fulfilled. I'm trying to ascertain which ones the Jews of Jesus' day would have interpreted the same way you are. Do you understand?
To you it is, because you have the NT to compare it to. But place yourself in the era just before Jesus appeared. It wouldn't appear like foreshadowing to them because they had no NT to compare it TO. Do you understand?
We were talking about the same verses, so my reply would be the same: I asked why Jesus didn't tell Pilates he was the son of God, you said he did, and I said No, he's not talking to Pilates in that verse.
I don't expect anything from him. I think he was a man who lived and died 2000 years ago and people today have the wrong idea about what he was there for. He was there to free his country. Unfortunately for him, he was killed.
Really? Which historians?
Thank you, but I'm not trying to prove whether Jesus was the Messiah. I'm trying to ascertain what Old Testament Jews thought the Messiah would be.
Okay, good, thank you. Now look at that first one. "That thou shouldest be my servant..." Who is God talking to there? In your opinion?
Might I suggest you simply do as others and READ the Bible?
Sorry. I don’t have time for your games.
Even people who read the Bible disagree with each other. If you don’t have time, however, just stop addressing me and it’ll be done.
In a nut shell:
The Old Testament says.... He's coming.
The Gospels tell us....... He's here.
Revelations tells us...... He's coming again.
I'll chime in on this...it was pretty evident they were looking to make Jesus their King (Messiah). But even from the beginning of his mission he told his mother “My time has not yet come”.....and he frequently had to clarify what his mission was to his disciples who were “Slow to learn”. However, rather than focus on the difficulties and doubts of those who didn't believe might have 'thought'...what of all the Jewish people who DID believe Jesus was the Messiah? or those who doubted but wanted to believe? and others in various places of unbelief and faith at that time.
What one learns from the scriptures is for to believe that Jesus is the Messiah it's something which is 'revealed' to an individuals mind, heart and soul....you cannot grasp it apart from the Lord doing a work in the individual to believe and this with enough evidence that they can cross the threshold of unbelief.
So it was easy for the Jews to think Jesus was going to "rescue" them from the Roman thuggery they were under....and it was that mindset Jesus had to address time and again by pointing to another Kingdom..."My Kingdom is NOT of this world".
Man today continues to seek 'Rescue" from all which might be outside himself creating uncertainty or fear, or any host of issues, when in fact Jesus seeks to "rescue" the very soul from the man himself.
When you look at the foot of the cross you see all mankind represented there....some up close, others at a distance...some passing by.....Others with political ideologies, and those with Religious/Political slants etc. They are all represented there. ...and so are we.
The question will always be "Who do YOU say that I am"....Jesus takes it directly to each individual.
Yes. Now the question is, how did they come to the conclusion that he was available and eligible for this role?
But even from the beginning of his mission he told his mother “My time has not yet come”.....and he frequently had to clarify what his mission was to his disciples who were “Slow to learn”.
But this was clearly not enough information to make them understand his true intentions. As far as you know, did ANYONE of his disciples or followers understand his true intention BEFORE the Resurrection?
However, rather than focus on the difficulties and doubts of those who didn't believe might have 'thought'...what of all the Jewish people who DID believe Jesus was the Messiah? or those who doubted but wanted to believe? and others in various places of unbelief and faith at that time.
What I'm trying to pinpoint is what they actually thought of him before the Resurrection. Was there anyone who clearly "got it" before that time?
So it was easy for the Jews to think Jesus was going to "rescue" them from the Roman thuggery they were under....and it was that mindset Jesus had to address time and again by pointing to another Kingdom..."My Kingdom is NOT of this world".
That is what the Gospels now say he said. We don't really know if he said it. But even if he did, it's clear he didn't explain enough for any of them to understand. So here's the question: why couldn't he make ANY of them understand?
No. They had the same problem you are having...these things are spiritually discerned and, by and large, they were “dead” to the prompting of God’s Spirit.
So the fault was with Jesus’ followers. Jesus could not make them understand, God could not make them understand... you can understand but they couldn’t. You are vastly superior to the disciples who actually followed Jesus. They were all wrong and you are right?
Having just read the whole thread in one sitting, I have to hand it to you for putting on a great debate. Agree or disagree, anyone with an appreciation for the art of argument would have to admire your work here in this thread.
Thank you — it was a pleasure to read, and I will be thinking about your questions and premises for quite some time.
I have not yet begun to fight. ;^) But seriously, I feel like I can’t even get people to understand where my starting point is. Thank you, though.
I couldn't help but chuckle for your question begs if or not you've read the historical account of Jesus Christ. Have you?
....But wasn't it more about being 'appointed' rather than 'available' or eligible'? After all it wasn't like the Jewish people did anything without an 'authority' overseeing it...such as the Sanhedrin and Para-sees. So there was governance.
However, to go on, his miracles did convince many...also recorded.... these were given to 'evidence' that he was who he said that he was. Many said that no man could do these things without God etc. Which is true of course. So they certainly didn't see him as just another rebel rouser, nor a false Messiah, which at that time there were many calling themselves such. In fact what Jesus 'spoke' was so compelling it astonished even the religious leaders, for they recognized he had no formal instruction yet spoke far and above even themselves, who were well taught in the law and the prophets.
So it's fair to say that Jesus didn't fit the average mold of whatever pre-conceived ideas of what their Messiah would be...and that in itself was an attraction. An attraction which unfortunately they continued to try to mold into just that...unsuccessfully. Amazingly Jesus was very patient with them...he knew what they had to overcome in their thinking .....and as is recorded he helped those willing to do just that.
As to if anyone of his disciples understood his intentions....oh I think so, for he clearly told them he would be "lifted up"....and the old testament is ripe about that to any who really knew it. Most didn't. (No more than people today read the scriptures....rather choose to believe whatever they are told to believe. Same as then.)
If you read the account of this event you will see Jesus spoke clearly of what was ahead...Jesus answered Phillip... "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?.... Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?..... The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. ... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
Actually Peter definitely 'got it' before the resurrection...and they 'all' knew he was a holy man as recorded........ Jesus asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”........ They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets". So you see they certainly identified him at least as a holy man of God....
.... He then continued... “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”..... Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”... So there it is! He got it!...Jesus answered further... “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, (interesting how he identifies with Simon as a son as well)... for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven"
You ask why couldn't Jesus make them understand...well clearly he did...but more importantly they "believed" what he said even if they didn't understand,..and that's important to grasp.... he had evidenced enough by what he said, what he did, throughout there time with Him, to believe him. They didn't need the entire picture....though he pretty much told it to them.
I personally think we cannot believe without God calling us to himself in the first place ( No man comes to the Father unless HE draws them)...he moves an individual toward himself....the Big question if there's a God or not can often be the beginning.....which eventually leads to 'every man' being faced with the ultimate question Peter was asked about Jesus..... and so are we..."Who do You say that I am?"...
Anyone with the in-dwelling Spirit of God is able (not always willing, but able - enabled to be more accurate)to discern the Word of God. The nation of Israel and the disciples of Jesus’ day did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. That came after His ascension on Pentecost.
Everything you’ve been questioning here about the [earthly] kingdom of God and Israel’s failure to comprehend that Christ had to die FIRST before this could be established can be understood in light of this actuality. When Christ appears to the disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24) He confronts them about this very idea. Their messiah was dead. Their idea about Him setting up His kingdom came crashing down around them.They were heading home. Then the risen Christ appears and finds them having a sad conversation about Christ’s apparent failure. He chides them, “O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?” And then we read: “ And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.” They needed a serious bible study to stir their minds up sufficiently to what they understood about OT teaching and how Christ came to fulfill it ON HIS/GOD’S TERMS and not theirs. Later, when they go back to Jerusalem, having been enabled to see the OT scriptures in their proper light, they hurry back to Jerusalem to tell the other disciples. When they join up with them there Christ again appears:
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
That power is the Holy Spirit which He gave to those first followers (at Pentecost - these were all Jews, by the way). He now freely gives the same Spirit to all His followers that they might “have the mind of Christ” [1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.]
I am not alone in “being right.” That is not even the way to describe it. I am saved. I have been taken out of the kingdom of darkness and translated into the kingdom of light. The believer didn’t do anything to deserve this, to earn this, to gain this. The believer has simply acknowledged his/her sinfulness, the desperate condition that this leaves one in before a holy God and accepts the free gift of salvation that God has provided in sending His Son to the cross to bear our sin in His own body on the tree, where He paid the penalty for it. Everyone who has the Spirit of God knows and understands these things, is waiting for His return and will be a part of His Kingdom.
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