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To: WhiskeyX

Your arguments are interesting. First of all, what you write justifies Crimea (and the majority Russian towns nearby) becoming part of Russia. Secondly, a vote that happened in Kiev was not a vote by the people who live in the areas protesting. A vote to stop a slide into chaos in Kiev does not negate what the people want. You cannot speak for those areas with a large minority Russian population, that speak Russian, as that government being representative of them. Let them vote.


28 posted on 04/10/2014 5:35:40 AM PDT by grania
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To: grania
“Your arguments are interesting. First of all, what you write justifies Crimea (and the majority Russian towns nearby) becoming part of Russia.”

There you go again with the false statements declaring 2 + 2 = 5 when it was said 2 + 2 = 4. Nothing I wrote, “justifies Crimea (and the majority Russian towns nearby) becoming part of Russia.” On the contrary, Russia had an obligation under international law to respect the territorial integrity of the Ukraine, and abrogated all such agreements in breach of the peace and in breach of numerous international treaties and customary laws. Russia's invasion, occupation, and annexation of the Crimea is a direct breach of the Kellogg-Briand Pact and the United Nations Charter. The United Nations General Assembly would be justified in terminating Russia's membership in the United Nations in much the same way as the League of Nations was about to do with japan and Germany before they withdrew from the League of Nations.

As I have observed many times before and you have disregarded many times before, the only votes that have ever taken place to determine what a self-determination referendum would decide is that the majority of the population of the Crimea wanted to become independent of Russia along with the Ukraine. The voters rejected being a part of Russia, and that included more ethnic Russians that were against joining Russia than ethnic Russians voting for joining Russia.

It has been argued that the ethnic Russian vote in the Crimea would be different today than it was in 1991, but that would d now be an irrelevant argument even if could be demonstrated to be true. As of 1991, the Crimea self-determined it wanted to be an autonomous republic within the sovereign domain of the Ukraine. The Ukraine, therefore, has lawful reason to oppose any and all efforts to alienate what has already become a territory within its sovereign domain. In the event the Autonomous Republic of the Crimea genuinely did want to obtain full independence from the Ukraine, there are lawful means of doing so within the Constitution of the Ukraine and the Autonomous Republic of the Crimea. None of those means have been attempted. No effort has been made by the occupation force of Russia and its Quisling Crimean insurrectionists to hold a referendum offering all Crimean citizens of the Crimea the opportunity to vote for remaining a republic within the Ukraine. Instead, Russia and its Crimean insurrectionists have conducted a sham referendum that offered no opportunity for anyone to vote for association with the Ukraine, and they committed massive vote fraud in the sham referendum. So, there has been no majority Crimean support for the Russian invasion and conquest of the Crimea, despite the orchestrated incitement of a militant minority.

“Secondly, a vote that happened in Kiev was not a vote by the people who live in the areas protesting.”

That is another false statement. The election of the Deputies representing the Oblasts were and are votes by the people of those Oblasts. What is not a vote of the people are the Russian FSB agents organizing violent riots, insurrection, and overthrow of the lawful Oblast governments representing the choices of the Ukrainian majority population. you are effectively arguing a violent minority of pro-Russian separatists are supposed to have some fantasy right to violently conquer with the assistance of foreign Russian military forces the majority populations of Ukrainians and other non-Russians within the sovereign territory of the Ukraine and the Oblasts.

“A vote to stop a slide into chaos in Kiev does not negate what the people want. You cannot speak for those areas with a large minority Russian population, that speak Russian, as that government being representative of them. Let them vote.”

The third largest minority population in Russia are Ukraiinian-Russian citizens. There are many communities in Russia where ethnic Ukrainians represent the majority of the population in the jurisdiction. By your false logic, the Ukraine and any of its allies would have the equal right to demand that Russia hand over to the Ukraine hundreds of thousands of square kilometers of Russian territories located between the western borders, Moscow, and Siberia where a majority and minority ethnic Ukrainian populations protest to be annexed to the Ukraine. Do you really want to make such an absurd and outrageous argument and claim when you know full well Russia would violently oppose any such attempts? Kharkiv Oblast: Ethnic Russian 25.6%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 10% Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Ethnic Russian 17.6%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 7% Donetsk Oblast Ethnic Russian 38.2%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 12% Luhansk Oblast Ethnic Russian 39.0%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 13% Zaporizhia Oblast Ethnic Russian 24.7%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 7% Kherson Oblast Ethnic Russian 14.1%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 7% Mykolaiv Oblast Ethnic Russian 14.1%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 8% Odessa Oblast Ethnic Russian 20.7%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 11% Autonomous Republic of Crimea Ethnic Russian 58.3%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 42% Kyiv City Ethnic Russian 13.1%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 5% Sevastopol City Ethnic Russian 71.6%; Voted against Ukraine independence from Russia 39%

39 posted on 04/10/2014 8:30:28 AM PDT by WhiskeyX
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