Replies

I’m not going waste my time responding to your ad hominem filled humongous screed.

Oh, don't take it so personally. It's only Apple and it's religious followers that I was sniping at. If you feel personally assaulted, then it must be because, you're one of those followers. BTW, have you seen the TV show, "The Following"? Consider Apple in place of "Joe" and you'll come close to what Apple represents. Which one of the "followers" are you closest to representing?

It’s not worth it.

Yet, you found it worthwhile to attack my prior posts in this discussion. Methinks that, you're losing the argument, and you can't take the heat anymore.

I see what you’re doing and so does everyone else.

Nope! You're imagining me doing something which I'm not doing. I'm merely presenting the facts, and you can't handle them. So, you do like the "global warming" idiots, and you have to attack the opposition that has the facts on their side. I must be a "denier" and a heretic to you, regarding the Apple religion.

You are comparing Apple’s three iPhones and two iPads PRODUCTS which ARE the best selling models in their market categories according to all statistics to ALL of the models manufactured by all competitors as a whole and the entire Android PLATFORM to denigrate Apple falsely.

Well dude, the facts are that, Apple's iOS devices are only made by one company, and it competes in a marketplace where the competition is composed of many players, and thus, it's only fair to compare the whole Android ecosystem to the competing iOS ecosystem.

You might be right when it comes to single providers of devices, but again, that would be unfair, since, we're talking about iOS, which is only composed of one maker, that being Apple. The competition for Apple is not Samsung, nor HTC nor LG nor any other single Android player. The competition for Apple is anything that keeps Apple from selling their devices to the potential buyers who, if the competition weren't there, would be buying just iOS devices. I guess the logic is too hard for you to understand, since your judgement is clouded by the Apple religion.

You fail to provide responsive replies but redirect to YOUR red herrings and strawman arguments with false claims such as there being “no market for the MacPro” when Apple is making thousands of the per day and cannot meet the demand, or “there is no innovation in the MacPro” when all the reviews are raving about that innovation, but you fail to show any competition that equals it. BAH! Go away. I’m done.

I'm going nowhere, and as long as there are people like you so misinformed and spreading misinformation, I'll stick around.

"Red herring and strawman arguments"? You sound like you're badly losing the argument. When somebody resorts to calling the others' arguments "red herrings" or "strawman arguments", it's only because, they have no real rebuttal arguments. So, you need to try to disarm the opposition by labeling their arguments as diversions and unworthy, but, the facts still remain on my side.

Look, nobody is claiming that the new MacPro is not a nice device to own. My argument is still true, that, the computer is not anything that is truly innovative. It's made from boilerplate components which have been available to all other OEMS, and which those OEMs could easily duplicate. The problem for the other OEMs is that, they're not known for creating and selling high-priced devices, and their acceptance in the high-price arena would not be as easily accpeted as what Apple produces. After all, Apple is known as the high-price leader, even when the devices don't really offer anything innovative. The only "innovation" that appears to come with the MacPro, is the trash can shape. While it's true that the entire device as a whole might constitute some "innovation" because of all the components that were put together so nicely, it's still not innovation per se, in regards to innovative advancements.

You claim that the device is selling nicely, and even Apple makes the statement that it's having a hard time keeping up with demand, but, where the heck are the figures to prove anything? Apple can make the claim that it's having a hard time meeting demand, but that could easily be because they're having a hard time producing enough for even slow demand. Apple is being careful with producing too many of the devices, because, the demand for large numbers of them may never be there, so, they have to produce enough for just what's been "pre-ordered", and even that could be a low number.

The one thing I will state that you cannot refute is that Apple took home 78.7% of ALL mobile device PROFITS in the fourth quarter of 2013.

I never argued against the profits that Apple makes, or about how much more profitable they are than the competition. So, it's you that's introducing a strawman argument here. I only argued about market share, which is VERY IMPORTANT, whether you want to admit it or not.

They care less about market share that means nothing. . .

Here's where you're making a huge mistake. Market share is very important to a company or to any individual ecosystem.

Apple may have the profits, but, if the competition sells more of those devices, and they're adequate enough for the buyers to come back in the future for more of the same, that will keep Apple from ever winning the business from that consumer in the future. And, the more people notice a set of devices which work fot others, the more they'll tend to look to get themselves one of them, and if the price is a lot less than for a comparable equipped iPhone or iPad, then, it's a no-brainer that, people will get the bettor or as-good-as device which costs a lot less.

Plus, device sales is not the only thing that matters. Android and iOS and WP, all have their ecosystesm, and those ecosystems have services and software which create "after sales" revenue and profits. The more devices that are out there for a particular ecosystem, the bigger the potential for revenue and profits for the WHOLE ecosystem. So, a device could cost 1/2 or 1/3 of what the iPhone goes for, but, chances are that, that device will have a bigger potential for more after-sales revenue and profits, than the lesser-sales iOS devices. Apple still does well with their ecosystem, but as the market-share for the competition grows, the bigger the potential for those other ecosystems in the future. If Apple drops down to around 10% of market share, and Android holds on to their 80%, eventually Android will be more profitable for the Android OEMs and even for Google. Same goes with WP, which is still growiing, but it's also taking away market-share from Apple. So, don't be so short-sighted when talking about how profitable the devices are for Apple. Apple is worried, and they are looking to try other things, because, the iPhone and iPads have been beginning to lose market share.

The holders of that market share, except for Samsung, are all losing money. .

Samsung is doing okay, but some of the others are also beginning to earn some revenue from Android devices. But, it's still a long-term strategy, and the strategy is to take away from Apple sales, and make Apple into just another smartphone maker, that won't be so relevant in the future. In fact, I foresee where Apple will drop to being the "5% company" in iOS devices, that it already is in "PCs". Apple: the 5% company. 5% marketshare, which is traditional for Apple.

. And even Samsung’s profit share dropped in the last full quarter!

What happened to Samsung, is a reflective of the whole market. Smartphone sales are beginning to level off, and to even drop in some markets. Smartphones are beginning to experience the same effects that PCs have been suffering from in the last 3-4 years, which is that, they're good enough to keep for longer than 1-2 years, and will last 3-5 years, and so, upgrades won't be happening as often as they used to; no need to upgrade when the device on-hand is good enough, and the new "advancements" aren't really worth it. Apple too is experience a loss of market share, and people are beginning to hold on to their iOS devices a little longer.

The other big thing that people fail to consider whan talking about sales and profits, is the economy. With rotten economies everywhere, especially in the EU markets and in many other areas fo the world, people won't be having the "disposable" income to upgrade as often as they did 2-4 years ago. The serice providers are having to resort to the gimmick of allowing users to "upgrade in the middle of a contract" because, they're not getting as much in new sales as they or the OEMs were getting in years past. The maturity of the smartphone market is only going to make matters worse for Apple and Androd device makers, and for Windows Phones and tablets.

And, here I thought that I was talking to an informed FR member, but, you don't seem to understand a lot of how the real world works. including economic matters.

Tell you what: drop the Apple religion, and you'll have time to become better educated on all other matters.

Market share means nothing if you’re pumping money out the door to buy it, Adorno.

Spending money for expectations of future revenue and profits, is what the free-market is all about. Sometimes, a company will be in the hole for many years, before the results start showing how right a company was. XBox was a money loser for quite a while for Microsoft, but, it's getting turned around, and they're actually making money with it now. WP is losing money for MS now, but, they have to persist, until it starts making money. Remember that, an ecosystem is not just about the hardware; it's about the hardware and the software, and the after-sales market for services and additional software sales.

Have you looked at Samsung’s advertising budget that is NOT CHARGED Against THEIR CELL PHONE DIVISION??? It’s astronomical.

Samsung is a very profitable company, and if one of their divisions is not earning so much at the moment, it's not an indication that it will be forever a loser.

ON the other hand, Apple has just been riding their iPhone and iPad gravy train, and is not investing enough on future projects or new innovations. That is a huge mistake, and like I said, a lot of other companies are doing more innovations than Apple, and Apple has actually fallen behind since their last "innovation" when the iPhone redefined the smartphone market.

That is one of the reasons that Apple's stock has fallen so hard from the highs of about 1 1/2 years ago. In reality, if they don't do anything soon, their stock will drop a lot more, and might settle to around $200 billion or less. Keep watching, because, 2 years ago, I had predicted Apple's market share to drop 200 billion years, and they actually dropped more than that, and now, I'm predicting that they'll drop another $100-200 billion in about 1-2 years, unless they come up with some new gadget or innovation to save them. Incremental gimmicks to their iPhone and iPads, are not real innovations, nor are they new devices, nor are they superior to what the competition offers.

And, here I thought that I was talking to an informed FR member, but, you don't seem to understand a lot of how the real world works. including economic matters.

After posting lies that are completely untrue. . . Especially about the Mac's market share which has been steadily GAINING market share while Windows PCs have been steadily loosing market share, your claim that I do not understand economics is totally laughable. My DEGREE is in Economics with a minor in Finance, you idiot, which I have posted on FR many times before. You made a claim about being a businessman. . . So am I. . . probably with one hell of a lot more experience than you. Your claims about market share pale in comparison to PROFIT SHARE. . . Which demonstrate your cluelessness. According to The Wall Street Journal on January 24, 2014, Apple's 5% by unit sales took home more than 50% of the PROFIT SHARE in the computer market in 2013 as well. . . and Apple has NEVER cared about dominating the market share, nor have they ever sought to dominate that market. The value of stock has very little to do with how well a company is actually is doing. . . especially a company like Apple.

Your claim of secondary markets as going to be driven by Android or Wp ecosystems is false as well. Right now here are the audio system being made for Android devices? Go into any mall and show us the kiosks of cases for every model of Android phone and Tablet for sale. You WILL find thousands of cases for iPhones, iPads, iPad minis with a small selection for only the most popular Android phones from Samsung and HTC, and there are literally hundreds of devices from various makers that will mount iDevices from simple speaker systems all the way to automobiles with built in interfaces for iOS devices, but none specifically designed for your vaunted Android compatibility connection. That thriving after-market you hope for is driven by iOS, not by the fragmented Android ecosystem where the potential for sales of aftermarket gear is far more limited by the difficulty of matching the hundreds of form-factors, multiple generations of Android versions still in use in devices that cannot be upgraded or haven't been upgrade, or have manufacturer limited versions of Android. Even the hoped for market in cases is abortive because the economics of the Android handset market is too restrictive as cost factors/profit potential before a particular design is superseded by the next, result in too short a window of sales opportunity for retailers to market cases sensibly. . . and there are simply too many variations for retailers to keep a sensible variety on hand to please Android users. The real world profits are being made by companies making accessories for iOS devices. Same for Apps. These are facts. Not the wishful thinking factoids YOU spout. Like you, Android users simply don't buy Apps. They, like you, are CHEAP!

As to other manufacturers easily making a computer like the MacPro. Fine. I've challenged you to show us one. Where is it? Several PC reviewers have attempted to assemble an equivalently specced Windows PC to the MacPro for a similar price and failed at the cost of the processors alone. . . before they got to the dual graphic cards, high speed SSD, let alone attempting to duplicate keeping it cool with a single fan. So, where is it??? The figures you so blithely tossed out show you really don't know what you are talking about. So answer the question you claim is so easy. Prove it. Put up, or shut up!

We've put up with claims like your for years. . . and they have been just more of the same. Myths. Lies. Redirection without proof. Your unsupported opinion. As it stands right now, 69% of new iPhone buyers come from ex-Android users. Very few iPhone users go the other way. They do exist, but are very rare.

You previously asked what I thought was your Agenda. I think everyone who reads your ignorant rants knows that you have a decided agenda. . . You make it plain. You are on an an Agenda to destroy Apple and bring enlightenment to all us poor fools who you think are misguided into buying what YOU think are a waste of money. Consider us told. Now, go pee in someone else's pool.