Can we please stipulate that words like "Deist" or "Theist" or even "Gnostic" are mostly just that: words, meaning very little to most people, indeed if even one in a hundred can distinguish between a "deist" and a "theist", I'd be amazed.
So we are here throwing those words around, as if they had deep and profound meanings which everybody understands and agrees to -- but they don't.
In fact, only spirited irish has made a great effort to fill in those words with her definitions, and it turns out that her definitions make those words into metaphorical dirt-bags holding most every wickedness known to mankind.
For that, I reject and rebuke Ms irish's thesis, especially as it may apply to Americans we all admire: our Founders.
Now, lo and behold, it turns out that not only our Founders, Ms boop, but also your own father belonged to a group that irish defines as wicked satanic Gnostic statists.
In that regard, I'll mention that one of my sons-in-law is a Freemason, and what I know for certain about him is that he's a great guy, good and patient with my daughter who is... well, I will not sit silent while ignorant stupid people like spirited irish throw insane stones at Freemasons.
So what do these words really mean, in the American context?
Ms boop, they mean pretty much exactly the way your own father instructed you -- a strong belief in God and in helping out their fellow mankind, but less than orthodox interest in religious creeds, doctrines, dogma & theologies.
Basically, just like Jefferson's Bible, it's Christianity simplified to its simple & most common denominators -- the core of Christianity which everyone of any denomination can agree to.
Beyond that, masons are tolerant of anybody's particular understandings.
And yet spirited irish insists and YHAOS supports her that Freemasons are lumped together with every other satanic wickedness she can imagine.
For that, she deserves to be just as strongly condemned as she condemns Freemasons.
As she sows, so must she reap.
Do you not agree?
betty boop: "Was Jefferson a Freemason?
Clearly, YES.
Does this make him a “Gnostic” in the sense so well elaborated by spirited irish on this thread?
I very strongly doubt it.
Was Jefferson a Christian?
By his own words, I strongly doubt that, too.
Was he a Deist? NOPE. "
There is no record confirming that Jefferson was a Freemason, but he was close friends and of like mind with many who certainly were.
Any alleged "Gnosticism" in Jefferson is a matter of definitions and intentions.
But since spirited irish intends the word as a dirt-bag she can use to vacuum in every wickedness known, we are obliged to categorically reject its application to Jefferson.
Jefferson's link to formal Christianity is also debatable, but it was of a kind with other Founders like John Adams, Madison & Franklin.
The word "Unitarian" meant something different in those days than it does today, but has often been applied to men like Jefferson and Adams.
So Jefferson's deism was akin to that of our other Founders -- call it Christian-deism or deistic-Christian, it was a blend of deistic ideas with a scaled-back Christian outlook, the proportion of each individualized to each Founder's likings.
And if I may say so: that is the core essence of what it means to be a conservative (of our Founders' ideals) American.
Agree or no?
Well, you're probably right about that, dear BroJoeK.
On the other hand, there is this:
I have always had to explain to the students at the beginning of my seminars all my life: There is no such thing as a right to be stupid; there is no such thing as a right to be illiterate; there is no such thing as a right to be incompetent. — Ellis Sandoz, "Editor's Introduction," The Collected Works of Eric Voegelin, Vol. 34: Autobiographical Reflections, 2006, p. 6.On an earlier post, you wrote:
But there is a much larger point here, one which I am ill-equipped to defend, but certainly needs a strong defense: our Founders did not found our uniquely free, constitutionally limited federal republic because of their Christian heritage and despite their Freemasonry, but just the opposite.You lose me right there, dear friend. I just do not see any evidence you could possibly come up with from American historical, cultural experience to defend such a notion. But I'll be glad to hear you out, if you want to try to persuade me otherwise.
What I find most perplexing is this: With you, any question seems to be resolvable only on the terms of Aristotle's Third Law, the Law of the Excluded Middle. It must always be a case of "either/or" with you, when I just see a clear case of "both" in operation.
Christianity goes to the root of American order. To say that the genius of the American order consists in very large degree to its insistence on not having any kind of institutionalized Church does not mean that Americans just routinely want to dispatch God out of their lives.
Anyhoot, must run for now, dear BroJoeK. Perhaps there is more to say on this issue; but the fact of the matter is, right now, I have a pot of chili on the stove which requires my attention, so that I might serve a delicious meal to my hungry husband tonight.
So I will go attend to that, for now,
But hope to be speaking with you again soon!
Thank you so much for writing, and for your kind words!