[BroJoeK]

YHAOS: "Really?! That would be a remarkable feat given that Abe was born on February 12, 1809, and Paine died June 8 that same year."

What, did you stay up late trying to figure some way to misunderstand a simple idea?
I said that the young Lincoln admired Paine.
Did the young YHAOS never admire somebody already dead?

YHAOS: "Paine died in poverty, unforgiven for his betrayal."

In fact, Paine was rewarded rather handsomely for his service by the US Congress, plus the states of New York and Pennsylvania.
Yes, he may well have squandered most of his earnings in England and France -- supporting the French Revolution.
But in 1802 Paine was invited to return to the United States by his friend, President Jefferson, and when Paine died at age 72 in 1809 he was buried on his 320 acre farm in New Rochelle, a gift from the State of New York.
Paine also owned a house in Bordontown City, NJ.

Paine's funeral was sparsely attended.
The newspapers' obituary read in part:

"He had lived long, did some good and much harm."

Only six mourners came to his funeral...

YHAOS: "Why are you buying the America-haters’ schtick?"

Sorry, FRiend, but it's your associate, the good spirited irish, who has made endless hammering on "gnostics" and Freemasons her work on this thread.
I have merely tried to defend our Freemason Founders against any association with her hammering.

Now, finally, after 1,500++ posts, we're starting to get some:

"oh no no no, we don't mean those good American Freemasons, only those other wicked gnostic satanic European Freemasons.
Those are the bad people, not our Founders..."

At least, I think that's what I'm hearing here...

YHAOS: "Or, perhaps you meant to say that Abe was a great admirer of the Paine of 1776, overlooking the subsequent actions Paine took which utterly destroyed his prior reputation and standing with the American people."

"When Abraham Lincoln was 26 years old in 1835, he wrote a defense of Paine's deism; a political associate, Samuel Hill, burned it to save Lincoln's political career.[72]
Historian Roy Basler, the editor of Lincoln's papers, said Paine had a strong influence on Lincoln's style:
'No other writer of the eighteenth century, with the exception of Jefferson, parallels more closely the temper or gist of Lincoln's later thought.
In style, Paine above all others affords the variety of eloquence which, chastened and adapted to Lincoln's own mood, is revealed in Lincoln's formal writings.'[73]"

YHAOS: "This conversation has previously taken place on FR (sans Lincoln’s grandfather).
Perhaps you suffer from long-term memory loss (December 5, 2009, and thereabouts).
I know I do. Old age is my excuse. What’s yours?"

My memory is still pretty good, but didn't recall discussing Paine before, or what a context for it might have been.
So a quick word search shows that post #1,536 of a 1/4/2009 thread (addressed to YHAOS, tacticalogic & betty boop among others) included this statement:

BroJoeK: "we should note that our Founding Fathers were almost all Christians (Thomas Paine is the only atheist name which comes to mind), some very devout, but most not really."

In fact, Paine was a Deist, and that is the only other mention of him I made before this thread.
Interesting to note some of the other comments in that old post... ;-)

YHAOS: "...we forget how bitterly he subsequently betrayed that same Spirit.
But the Americans of the Revolution never forgot, and never forgave.
The Abe Lincoln of the 19th Century, being a consummate student of American History, would know this."

In fact, even in his old age, Paine was befriended by President Jefferson, and after his death, admired by young Abraham Lincoln.
But more than anyone else, Paine was befriended and helped by Benjamin Franklin, who originally encouraged Paine to leave England for America, in 1774.
Whether Franklin would have approved of Paine's views of, say 1796, is doubtful, but most likely because of their impolitic nature, rather than substance.

Bottom line: Paine was born European not American, and so in the end he was held in contempt by most -- but not all -- Americans at the time of his death in 1809.

[YHAOS]

“Did the young YHAOS never admire somebody already dead?”

Of course . . . one “dead somebody” being the Thomas Paine of 1776 – or even the Thomas Paine of 1791 and The Rights of Man.

“But where says some is the king of America? I'll tell you Friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the Royal of Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honors, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the charter; let it be brought forth placed on the divine law, the word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the king is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other."
. . . . . Thomas Paine, Thoughts of the present state of American Affairs, Common Sense, 1776

I asked for clarification. Through the fog of your Alpha Male pretentiousness, you clarified. Which word didn’t you understand?

Among other words you don’t seem to understand (or do you?):
It’s been my experience that the arguments of 0bamatrons do not rise above the pyramid’s 4th level (contradiction), and generally sputters and stalls out at attempts to rise above the second (Ad Hominem) level.
Yes or no?
The simple matter is this whole “struggle” is all about seizing the control of power and wealth: power over Conservatives and the confiscation of Conservative wealth (Liberals will surrender their very souls with barely a whimper - if even so much as that).
Yes or no?
Put simply, a fight over money and control of our backsides.
Yes or no?
Liberals have taken over Science and use it to demonstrate their “superiority” over Conservatives.
Yes or no?
Liberals do not believe anything of value exists beyond backsides.
Yes or no?
It is not the Judeo-Christian Tradition that mistakenly thinks Science is an ethical and moral system designed to guide us in the value judgments with which we must deal.
Yes or no?
The truth is both Liberals and Scientists know better, but dare not admit it.
Yes or no?

“In fact, Paine was rewarded rather handsomely for his service by the US Congress”

In fact, Paine died in poverty, unforgiven for his betrayal of the American People.

“Only six mourners came to his funeral...”

Included among those six, neither you, I, nor Thomas Jefferson?