Posted on 09/20/2013 4:29:03 AM PDT by spirited irish
Did you skip over that verse 8 where God says:
But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
God calling the Son, God. Right there. Hard to miss or ignore.
I don't think you are being honest about it. I never said that. I would never "admit" something if I didn't believe it. It seems you are quite hung up on the GDH accusation and you ignored that I said most of the Founders' views on Christianity would probably be right in line with mine. Why would I call them heretics? Are you able to separate their heroics from their heresies? Is it possible that those who held unorthodox beliefs on Christian tenets just MAY be guilty of heresy ON THOSE SPECIFIC doctrines?
Go back and read my post again, I gave them PLENTY of respect!
But it absolutely, positively does, and if you doubt that for even a moment, then just consider: suppose our Founders' religious views had equated to those of, oh, just to pick one: the Pilgrims who landed in 1620.
Do you fantasize they would ever write a First Amendment, guaranteeing our Freedom of Religion?
HiTech RedNeck: "Let’s not point a finger at Washington without realizing that three more point back at us."
Far from trying to "point a finger at Washington", I am instead holding Washington up as a great example of what being American is all about.
Imho, our Founders religious views had profound effects on their Declaration and Constitution, from which we still benefit to this day.
That's why I'm here to request they not be treated on Free Republic as "God Damned Heretics".
Do you disagree?
But I do, FRiend.
My best wishes to you and your wife...
FRiend, that is a direct quote from Psalm 45:6 which refers not to God Himself, but to a human being.
As we have reviewed here now several times, Jesus himself referred to this Psalm and Psalm 82:6 in John 10:34, noting specifically that human beings are sometimes called "gods" in the Old Testament, as terms of highest respect.
That's why Jesus said, "I am God's Son", was not "blasphemy".
For the same reason that Kevmo does.
Many of our Founders were not traditional Trinitarian Christians, but were to some degree or another influenced by Enlightenment-age deism, Unitarianism and/or Freemasonry.
I'm here hoping to defend their views against the murderous hatred of folks like Kevmo.
Do I take you correctly to want both sides?
I meant to ping you to #2506
I'm pretty sure that was you doing that.
The smooth, demonic minion denial comes fashioned as questions, questioning the faithe/faithing of those we were raised to respect as Christian men and women founding a nation. The Mormonism 'apologists' do the same demonic deed and pat themselves on the back praising their clever manipulation of words and meanings.
“The smooth, demonic minion denial comes fashioned as questions, questioning the faithe/faithing of those we were raised to respect as Christian men and women founding a nation. The Mormonism ‘apologists’ do the same demonic deed and pat themselves on the back praising their clever manipulation of words and meanings.”
Spirited: A powerfully insightful explanation, one that goes beyond the linear and into deeper levels of meaning.
Jesus knows all men and knows what is in man.He knows the thoughts and intents behind every word of every post.
I see you ARE being quite vocal (Typal??) in this thread!!
Don’t waste TOO much time with the TarBabies of the world.
I've "blithely ignored" nothing.
When you demand book-length answers to your book-length post, then the only possible response it to refer you to one of my book sources.
You will find that link in my post #2,482.
As an aside, Elsie, do you recall any Biblical passage where an Angel/Angels was/were referred to as giants or gigantic?
So you either view Jesus Christ as a mere human, a demigod or a 'lower' god than the Father. From John 1 we know the Son of God as the One where "all things were made." So obviously you don't see the Son of God as a mere human. That leaves a demigod or a god for you to choose from who created all things.
John 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Yes, but Ephesians 3:19 does, and with the same "fullness" you used to claim Paul wants us to believe that Jesus is God Himself.
Nonsense! You are confusing divinity and deity. Go learn the difference between divinity(theioes) and deity (theotes). Things are divine if they are from God or associated with God, whereas God is (theotes). Now put away your childish reference to Ephesians 3:19. It's nothing more than mere pettifogging.
In fact, if John had merely wanted to affirm that Jesus was divine, there was a perfectly proper Greek word for it: θεῖος (theios, divine) (R. Brown 1966: 5; Bultmann 1971: 33–34; Carson 1991: 117). Nevertheless, the force of the anarthrous θεός is probably not so much that of definiteness as that of quality: Jesus “shared the essence of the Father, though they differed in person” (Wallace 1996: 269). Everything that can be said about God also can be said about the Word (Morris 1995: 68; Wallace 1996: 735). By contrast, wisdom is never referred to as θεός. Köstenberger, A. J. (2004). John (pp. 28–29). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.
I did post previously the church affiliations for the founders:
FRiend, there are no "minion games" and no "setting aside" any gospel.
But, as partly explained in post #2,467, I have not addressed John 1 for the following reasons:
MHGGinTN: "The smooth, demonic minion denial comes fashioned as questions, questioning the faithe/faithing of those we were raised to respect as Christian men and women founding a nation."
But I am not "questioning" our Founders' faith, I'm telling you they were not, in large part, traditional Christians.
Instead, their Christianity was influenced, to greater or lesser degrees, by their Age of Enlightenment, by deism, Unitarianism and Freemasonry.
Those are not "questions", they are facts.
MHGGinTN: "The Mormonism 'apologists' do the same demonic deed and pat themselves on the back praising their clever manipulation of words and meanings."
I am not Mormon, but some of my relatives are, and they are the nicest, best people you can imagine.
There is nothing "demonic" about them, and for you to claim such says nothing about them, and a lot about you.
That is evidently the conclusion you've been trying to drive me to, according to your twisted, specious logic.
First you lump all the Founding Fathers together into a "group," so to speak of "their" religious views. As if such were monolithic. Among the Founding Fathers are to be found Trinitarians, Unitarians, and/or Deists.
A Christian by definition is a Trinitarian. For a Christian to deny the divinity of Christ might be heretical. But it might also be the consequence of a certain "mental blindness," wherein one can read this scripture —
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.— and not notice that it declares Jesus Christ, the Word and Son of God, is "One" with the Father from the Beginning. That He is of the same divine substance as the Father, and thus Himself fully divine.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. — John 1:1–5
Evidently, BroJoeK, you need to see "Jesus Is God" spelled out for you in the Holy Scriptures in just so many words. Since that statement is not there (AFAIK "in so many words"), you feel you have reason to doubt.
And you seem to be here to promote that doubt. Or at least, to upset as many Christians as possible.
Do you suppose the Unitarians and/or Deists among the Founding Fathers took issue in any way with the Trinitarians? Or vice versa? Certainly, neither Thomas Jefferson nor Benjamin Franklin disparaged those who did not share their own particular religious views (whatever they may have been; that's not for me to say, it's a matter between them and God) — they were fully committed to John Locke's views on religious toleration. They didn't go running around trying to stir up trouble among the brethren as you do, BJK.
Anyhoot, the United States of America is not a "religious establishment." The Constitution was not conceived of by a band of priests, or a collection of Buddhist monks.
It was conceived of by a "band of brothers" with deep cultural roots in the ancient cities of Jerusalem, Athens, and Rome.... [c.f. Russell Kirk's The Roots of American Order.]
They were also deeply influenced by the intellectual revolution occasioned by the brilliant achievements of Sir Isaac Newton, who seemed to have "mechanized" the universe.... The Founders were all to some extent "children of the Enlightenment."
Point is, the Founders are irreducible to the convenient categories of your preference. So what is the point of your exercise, to "force" certain FReeper Christians to declare at least some of them "heretic?"
Christianity is not about what you know. It's about how you live. And God alone is sole judge of that, certainly not me.
Pace, my friend.
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