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To: Sherman Logan
I said: "Its economy (referring to the Northeastern states) depended on manufacturing and shipping. But it neither raised its own food nor its own raw materials, nor did it furnish freights for its own shipping."

You said: "I have no idea what you are talking about here."

Again that was a reference to the Northeastern states.

You said: "The only raw material the North imported in large quantity for its industry that I'm aware of was cotton."

Wrong.

Cotton was not the largest import or the only one.

In 1860, the value of cotton imported into the Northeast was $110,000. (U.S. Treasury). The value of food imported the year before to the Northeastern states from the South was $200,000.

That should clear up the issue.

Here from the Annual Report of the US Treasury, 1859. It was a part of President Buchanan's State of the Union report of that year. That data was also developed in part from the US Census of 1860, and reported on by Thomas P. Kettell, "Southern Wealth and Northern Profits", pgs 73, 74, and 75.

Data from Reports:

1859 Value of Southern Produce sold to the North...$200,000,000.

1859 Value of produce and grains exported from the North to Europe...$40,047,700.

Quote: "The exports of bread stuffs and provisions are also due to the South, since but for the quantities of these which are sent North to feed the Eastern States, little or no Western produce could be spared for Europe, even at high prices. (pg. 72, Kettell).

Quote: "The barren hills of New England...they have hitherto had their food and materials brought to them." (pg. 72, Kettell).

Quote: (1859 food exports from the North)"...The quantity of these articles which went direct from the Northern States did not exceed the quantities which that section received from the South and from Canada." (pg. 73, Kettell).

So, if you believe the Treasury report you will see that your comment about Northern imports that you mentioned that "I'm aware of..." must now include food as being a large percentage of Northeastern imports.

You will also notice that your comment: "The Deep South did not even produce enough food to feed itself, with large imports from the North"... is also incorrect.

If you will consult Kettell's section III, you will find that the first table shows you that the Southern states produced in 1858 54 million slaughtered animals to the productions of 22 million in the west and 34 million in the Northeast.

With regard to grain, the South produced 307 million pounds while the West harvested 173 million and the Northeast produced 132 million.

T think your understanding of the productions of the late 1850s is entirely wrong.

394 posted on 04/12/2013 1:03:54 PM PDT by PeaRidge
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To: PeaRidge; Sherman Logan; x; Bubba Ho-Tep
PeaRidge: "In 1860, the value of cotton imported into the Northeast was $110,000. (U.S. Treasury).
The value of food imported the year before to the Northeastern states from the South was $200,000.
That should clear up the issue."

Hardly, since you are restricting "the North" to Northeastern states, while expanding "the South" to include all of Deep South, Upper South and Border States.

In fact, when push came to shove, "the North" included the Northeast, Middle-Atlantic, Midwest-Northwest, Far West and Southern Border States all of which accounted for 80% of US free-white population and 90% of US manufacturing.

Sure the Deep South and Upper South were important economically, but they were not in 1860 dominant.
The Union could and did get along just fine without them.

PeaRidge: "If you will consult Kettell's section III, you will find that the first table shows you that the Southern states produced in 1858 54 million slaughtered animals to the productions of 22 million in the west and 34 million in the Northeast."

At least 1/3 of those 54 million came from Border States which remained loyal to the Union, meaning we are looking at most at 36 million produced in Confederate states, versus 74 million in Union states.
But doubtless, even that overstates the Southern case -- since such edible agricultural products were produced inversely proportional to the amount of land devoted to slave-based cash crops like cotton, tobacco and sugar.

In other words, high-slave areas like the Deep South produced few if any surplus animals for slaughter, while low-slave Union states like Kentucky and Missouri producd correspondingly more.

PeaRidge: "With regard to grain, the South produced 307 million pounds while the West harvested 173 million and the Northeast produced 132 million."

Again, break it down by state and you'll find that Deep South states most devoted to export cash crops produced relatively few grains, while more northern Border States produced far more.
And since Border States remained loyal to Union, your analysis is deeply flawed.

415 posted on 04/16/2013 8:49:30 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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