Hugo Chavez died 'in the bosom of the Church': Catholic News Agency (CNA)

Catholic news agency ^ | Mar 6, 2013 | Catholic news agency

[metmom]

He was a member of the Church and yet a sinner who lived his faith imperfectly.

He didn't live his faith at all. He rejected the Catholic church.

[metmom]

We don't see fellow Protestants condemning this attitude.

Could you find some posts somewhere where ANY FR non-Catholic demonstrated that attitude?

Has it now gone from being rare, only a few, to *we don't see fellow Protestants condemning this attitude*.

Also, under the rubric of Sola Scriptura, what earthly power can claim authority to condemn the "once saved, always saved" interpretation of Scripture?

Rubic? For real?

What is so hard to understand about....

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:21-23 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

John 10:27-29 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

There's no one to condemn a Scriptural teaching.

That hasn't been my experience.

Post the links. I don't know anyone who is saved who is flippant about sin. If you can find the links, have at it.

[daniel1212]

Note that Savino is quite a fringe RC who seems much in league with the theology of Chavez, and is the one saying the mass, and will attend the conclave that elects the new Pope.

[GregB]

he was a murderer. I want to throw up. They are desecrating that church!!!!

[SparkyBass]

Nah, he lived and died in the sphincter of satan.

[daniel1212]

Faced with his impending death Hugo Chavez requested spiritual direction and asked to receive the Sacraments, one of which is reconciliation/absolution.

As i clarified here (see post 15 ) deathbed conversions are possible, but as with Ted Kennedy and others, what is not to be argued is whether they could have found grace unto effectually repentant faith, but that there is no manifest substance for it outside taking in rituals which they did before, while manifestly being anti-Christian.

Politicians especially have shown how easily they can separate what they profess from what they practice, likely supposing they can con God as they do men, and how receiving sacraments does not signify repentance. In a similar situation, when the Pharisees and Sadducees came to be baptised by John, he said unto them, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance. (Mt. 3:7,8) For Scripture requires one to "repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance," (Acts 26:20)

The Church did exactly what it is to do by praying for the repose of his soul. Is there something wrong with that?

If that is all a RC funeral was then there would not be canon law that forbids it for such a manifest sinner, as many RCs argue and as this priest did in regards to Ted Kennedy (quite similar to Chavez) on this FR thread.

A RC funeral is "the last farewell by which the Christian community greets one of its members before his body is brought to its tomb," (CCC 1690) and thus it is another example of how Rome treats the most nominal RCs as members in life and in death, despite conservative RCs considering them excommunicated.

Thus your contention is with them and not simply me. See post 22

[Iscool]

I forgot to add that I am not a Christian either,

Are you a Catholic???

[daniel1212]

why a church would want to put some kind of official stamp on an unrepentant brigand is beyond me.

And by treating men like poor Teddy K as members in life and in death, a church effectually coveys that this kind of faith is salvific, and which speaks louder than what may be officially taught .

[Iscool]

There are some important distinctions. Catholics object to those Protestants who believe that since they are "saved," they can sin with impunity. I realize that this is a small percentage of Protestants, but they do exist.

Yes we can...But we however often don't want to...And when we do, we are remorseful...

By getting saved (by Jesus) our old nature has been put to death...But he don't stay there...He keeps on raising himself back up...

You have to be saved to understand how that works...

As I see it, one the reason Catholics don't get that is because they don't sin...Apparently...How can you go months, or even a year without confessing your sins??? I'll bet I confess more sins in a day than a Catholic does in a month, or a year...

The real deal is that you guys are not confessing your sins...Couldn't be...You are just not acknowledging any sins...Apparently no conviction from the Holy Spirit...

[darkangel82]

I was one a long time ago but have since left the faith.

[daniel1212]

I take it you are not actually suggesting that Benedict XVI actually approved of the late apostate buffoon of Hyannis Port.

You mean in regards to this:

In a recent letter to the Pope which was read at his graveside, he ]Kennedy] insolently asserts he “never failed to believe and respect the fundamental teachings” of his church, and tried to be a faithful Catholic, etc..

The closest thing we get to any kind of contrition is the ambiguous, “I know that I have been an imperfect human being, but with the help of my faith, I have tried to right my path,” before he goes on to to defend his wonderful works, including universal health care. Not a word of remorse about supporting abortion or promoting homosexual rights, or indolence and a welfare state.

In his response, the pope did not censure him at all, but writing, as usual, through a senior Vatican official, he said,

“He was saddened to know of your illness, and has asked me to assure you of his concern and his spiritual closeness. He is particularly grateful for your promise of prayers for him and for the needs of the universal Church."

The Holy Father has read the letter which you entrusted to President Barack Obama, who kindly presented it to him during their recent meeting. His Holiness prays that in the days ahead you may be sustained in faith and hope, and granted the precious grace of joyful surrender to the will of God our merciful Father. He invokes upon you the consolation and peace promised by the Risen Savior to all who share in His sufferings and trust in His promise of eternal life.

Commending you and the members of your family to the loving intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Holy Father cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of wisdom, comfort and strength in the Lord." "(http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/29/ted-kennedy-to-pope-benedict-i-am-writing-with-deep-humility/)

Sounds like everything was copacetic. However, if he had converted and become a very conservative evangelical, then i am sure real concern for his soul would have been expressed.

[Iscool]

If salvation cannot be lost because of sins committed after accepting Jesus, why should the Church then deny him a funeral Mass in prayer for the repose of his soul?

Invalid question since it is your religion that teaches that salvation can be lost...

What I find interesting is that a Cardinal would show up to perform the Mass instead of just a lowly local priest...What's up with that???

[daniel1212]

There are some important distinctions. Catholics object to those Protestants who believe that since they are "saved," they can sin with impunity. I realize that this is a small percentage of Protestants, but they do exist.

A Christian certainly can not impenitently continue in known sin (Heb. 10:25ff) or without chastisement, and while upholding that it is precisely faith that appropriates justification before God , Reformers taught the only kind of faith that is salvific is the kind that will effect obedience toward its Object. ".. it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! (Luther's introduction to Romans).

Works vindicate a soul as being saved, as the faith that justifies the heart is one that confesses the the Lord he believes in. "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. " (Romans 10:10)

[metmom]

Faith is not the property of any denomination.

I know Catholics call their religion the *faith*, but leaving Catholicism is not abandoning faith in God.

You could try Jesus without the religion. He doesn’t like it either. You’ll find Him welcoming you just as you are.

[Iscool]

I was one a long time ago but have since left the faith.

But yet hanging around 'religious' threads...That's a good sign...

[metmom]

However, if he had converted and become a very conservative evangelical, then i am sure real concern for his soul would have been expressed.

In the eyes of the Catholic church, nothing could be worse.

You can be the kind of hypocritical non-practicing Catholic that Kennedy and Chavez were and as long as you remain in the Church, be given all kinds of excuses and pardons, but convert and put your trust in Christ instead of Catholicism, is intolerable.

In the eyes of the Catholic church the worst Catholic sinner is better off than any godly Christian who is not part of the RCC.

I'd hazard a guess that Luther and Calvin lead more godly lives than Kennedy and Chavez.

[EBH]

Are you?

We are not to cast stones on the sinner. Jesus said, ‘he who is without sin, cast the first stone.’ And Jesus himself, being without sin, did not cast a stone. Instead he forgave the woman.

Again on the cross he hurled no rebuke, but accepted the confession and was generous with forgiveness.

We know not what Hugo Chavez’s confession was, but I do know Jesus calls us to accept the confession of the contrite heart and to forgive those who trespass against us.

Am I Jesus? I strive to understand His teachings and apply them everyday as a living disciple.

[metmom]

Romans 6:1-14 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

[Jvette]

<<<>>> At the hour of his death he reached out to the Church. Whether for insurance or because he came to know the truth, we don't know. What we do know is that he requested spiritual guidance from the Church and requested the Sacraments. My inquiry was as to why so many nonCatholics felt the need to come in this thread and denounce him and declare him likely unsaved and justify that by holding up how he led his life as proof of that. I though Sola Fide was enough. It seems it is not, exactly as Catholics have been saying. I see that the Church is also being denounced for holding a funeral mass for him. The Church does not declare the state of someone's immortal soul and always receives repentant sinners with the grace of absolution if that is genuinely sought. Whatever his sins, he was a Catholic who declared a belief in Jesus and sought forgiveness so a mass was appropriate. <<<<>>>> So again, is it faith or works which saves one? <<<<>>>> There was no stamp of approval, Ted Kennedy and Chavez were both Catholics. They both were advised by their priests as they prepared for death. They both had an opportunity to repent of their sins and ask forgiveness for them. The Church did what the church does, prays for the repose of the soul and leaves the judgement of that soul to God. I have no idea of the fate of either man, they are left to the mercy of God who alone knows their hearts. I merely find it amusing to hear non Catholics condemning Chavez because of the way he lived his life even though he was a professed Christian, when those very same Christians decry Catholics for saying that one must have good works as well as faith.

[JoeFromSidney]

Well, if he made it, there's hope for the rest of us.