[BroJoeK]

Jay Redhawk: "Lincoln goaded Davis into firing on the fort so that Lincoln could claim the South started the war.
So actually Lincoln is responsible for that declaration of war."

Lincoln no more "goaded" Davis to attack Fort Sumter -- by sending supplies -- than you might "goad" a criminal to attack your home by bringing groceries to your family.

Without exception, every Confederate demand, threat, shooting or seizure of US Federal properties & officials was a constitutionally covered act of rebellion, insurrection or "domestic violence."
And all that was before the Confederacy formally declared war on the United States.

A partial listing:

Major Secessionists Seizures & Assaults on Federal Properties and officials in 1861

• South Carolina (declared secession on December 20, 1860), seizures & actions:
  1. Castle Pinckney (December 27, 1860)
  2. Fort Moultrie (December 27, 1860)
  3. United States Arsenal at Charleston (December 30, 1860)
  4. Fort Johnson (January 2, 1861)
  5. Fired on resupply ship Star of the West (January 9, 1861)
  6. Fired on civilian ship Rhoda H Shannon (April 3, 1861)
  7. Fort Sumter (April 14, 1861)

• Georgia (declared secession on January 19, 1861), seizures & actions:
  1. Fort Pulaski (January 3, 1861)
  2. United States Arsenal at Augusta (January 24, 1861)
  3. Oglethorpe Barracks (January 26, 1861)
  4. Fort Jackson
  5. Dahlonega Mint
  6. several US ships in Georgia waters (January 22, 1861)
  7. Georgia governor ordered repudiation of all debts to Northerners (April 26, 1861)

• Alabama (declared secession on January 11, 1861), seizures & actions:
  1. United States Arsenal at Mount Vernon (January 4, 1861)
  2. Fort Morgan (January 5, 1861)
  3. Fort Gaines (January 5, 1861)
  4. US navy ship USS Alert (January 18, 1861)
  5. US Revenue Marine (Coast Guard) schooner Cass (January 30, 1861)
  6. US Navy sloop USS Isabella (March 20, 1861)
  7. Confederate Congress (Montgomery) authorized 100,000 man army (March 6, 1861)
  8. Confederate Congress granted war powers to Jefferson Davis (April 29, 1861)
  9. Davis signed Declaration of War on United States, authorized 400,000 more Confederate troops (May 6, 1861)

• Mississippi (declared secession on January 9, 1861), seizure:
  1. Fort Massachusetts on Ship Island (January 20, 1861)

• Florida (declared secession on January 10, 1861) seizures:
  1. United States Arsenal at Apalachicola (January 6, 1861)
  2. Fort Marion (January 7, 1861)
  3. Barrancas Barracks (January 12, 1861)
  4. Fort Barrancas (January 12, 1861)
  5. Fort McRee (January 12, 1861)
  6. Pensacola Navy Yard (Warrington Ship Yard) (January 12, 1861)

• North Carolina (rejected secession February 28, 1861, declared secession on May 20, 1861), seizures:
  1. Fort Johnston (January 9, 1861)
  2. Fort Caswell (January 10, 1861)
  3. Fort Macon (April 15, 1861)
  4. Fort Johnson (April 16, 1861)
  5. United States Arsenal at Fayetteville (April 22, 1861)
  6. Charlotte Mint

• Louisiana (declared secession on January 16, 1861) seizures:
  1. United States Arsenal at Baton Rouge (January 10, 1861)
  2. Baton Rouge Barrack (January 10, 1861)
  3. Fort Jackson (January 11, 1861)
  4. Fort Saint Philip (January 11, 1861)
  5. Fort Pike (January 14, 1861)
  6. Fort Macomb (January 28, 1861)
  7. United States paymaster’s office at New Orleans (February 19, 1861)
  8. New Orleans Mint (January 31, 1861)
  9. United States Custom's House at New Orleans (January 31, 1861)
  10. USRM ship McClelland (January 29, 1861)
  11. USRM schooner Washington (January 31, 1861)

• Texas (referendum affirmed secession February 23, 1861), seizures:
  1. United States Arsenal at San Antonio (February 16, 1861)
  2. Camp Cooper (abandoned February 21, 1861)
  3. San Antonio Barracks (February 16, 1861)
  4. Camp Verde (abandoned March 7, 1861)
  5. Fort McIntosh (abandoned March 12, 1861)
  6. Camp Wood (abandoned March 15, 1861)
  7. Camp Hudson (abandoned March 17, 1861)
  8. Fort Clark (abandoned March 19, 1861)
  9. Fort Brown (surrendered March 20, 1861)
  10. Fort Duncan (surrendered March 20, 1861)
  11. Fort Mason (abandoned March 28, 1861)
  12. Fort Bliss (abandoned March 31, 1861)
  13. US Army officers captured in San Antonio now treated as POWs (April 23, 1861)
  14. Indianola surrender of 420 US troops (April 25, 1861)
  15. USRM schooner Dodge (March 2, 1861)
  16. US troop transport Star of the West (April 18, 1861)
  17. US coast survey schooner Twilight (April 20, 1861)

• Arkansas (rejected secession on March 18, declared secession on May 6, 1861), seizures:
  1. United States Arsenal at Little Rock (February 8, 1861)
  2. United States ordnance stores at Napoleon (February 12, 1861)
  3. United States subsistence stores at Pine Bluff (April 18, 1861)
  4. Fort Smith (April 23, 1861)

• Missouri (rejected secession on March 22, 1861), seizures:
  1. United States Arsenal at Liberty (April 20, 1861)
  2. United States ordnance stores at Kansas City (May 3, 1861)

• Virginia (rejected secession on April 4, formally declared secession on May 23, 1861), seizures:
  1. Gosport Naval Yard (April 21, 1861)
  2. US Customs Office, Richmond (April 18, 1861)
  3. Harper's Ferry engines & railroad cars (May 14, 1861)

• Oklahoma (Indian Territory) seizures:
  1. Fort Washita (abandoned April 30, 1861)
  2. Fort Arbunkle (abandoned May 4, 1861)

Note, not all exact dates are known, notably Confederate seizures of forts abandoned by US Army in Texas and Oklahoma.

[Jay Redhawk]

Well the difference of opinion we are having here is that you reject the legality of secession and I embrace the idea as a natural right. As long as you uphold statism as superior to individualism and states rights we will never agree.

So if Texas were to secede tomorrow you would call them traitors and encourage Obama to prosecute a war against them? When and if the crap ever hits the fan please stay away from me. Blind adherence to a government of fools and bureaucrats is extremely dangerous. American tyranny is just as bad as the British or the Soviet version, and there is a natural, God given right to rebel when the human created government begins to misbehave and violate the very laws it is meant to uphold. Southerners saw the anti-slavers and yankee bureaucrats, and bankers in the same light that I see liberals. I do not see them as my fellow countrymen, and want nothing to do with them. I greatly resent liberals dictating to me what I will and will not do, and I will find ways to rebel against them. There has been enough demonization of conservatives and contitutionalist, and it is time to stop it.

If you believe Lincoln's persecution of the war was justified I can't see how you could be in opposition to Obama’s unconstitutional actions. From my point of view Lincoln was a tyrant in the same fashion as the current punk from Illinois.