Posted on 11/14/2012 3:52:19 PM PST by greyfoxx39
On the night of the South Carolina Republican primary in January, I sat near the front of a dark campaign press bus and listened to reporters talk about Mitt Romney's underwear.
Earlier in the day, one of them had happened upon the candidate and his wife doing laundry in the basement of our Columbia, South Carolina, hotel, and a small cluster of colleagues had now gathered to listen to him relate the anecdote, lapping up every mundane detail of this rare interaction with the closed-off couple.
Finally, another reporter interrupted.
"Did you see their underwear?" she asked, grinning mischievously as though she had just said something naughty.
"What do you think it looks like?" inquired another.
"I think you can see pictures online," someone chimed in.
The exchange prompted giggles from the group — some nervous, others indulgent — as I slid down in my seat and pretended to look at my phone, hoping it wouldn't occur to any of them I might be wearing the strange, exotic garment they were all gossiping about. It wasn't that their tone was antagonistic or insensitive; just uncontrollably curious — like virginal adolescents talking about sex during a sleepover. And as a lifelong Mormon, I had grown fairly used to hearing my religion talked about that way.
This was how much of the political class was treating Romney's religion at the start of 2012: too awkward to discuss in an open forum, yet too tantalizing to ignore altogether. Questions permeated hushed conversations and private e-mail chains: Does Romney really believe he will get his own planet when he dies? Does he baptize dead Jews in his temples?
And as one prominent journalist at Newsweek quietly asked a colleague in the run-up to the Republican primaries, "Would he actually wear that Mormon underwear in the White House?"
If Mitt Romney has one lasting political legacy, I think it will be that next time a Mormon runs for president, that question likely won't be asked.
As Romney's expansive campaign headquarters collapses into a pile of cardboard boxes in Boston, his aides and supporters are beginning to mull what place their failed campaign will have in the history books. And many have determined that Romney's political career may be remembered most for the role it played in mainstreaming a large minority religion, despite a concerted, strategic effort to avoid the topic altogether — something I witnessed with a front-row seat.
A couple days after the election, I spoke to Robert O'Brien, a campaign foreign policy advisor and avowed Romney loyalist. We'd spoken several times over the course of the campaign, and his surrogacy had always been marked by a sort of religious devotion to the candidate, and an undying faith that he was the man meant to save America from ruin.
Suffice it to say, he was crushed by the loss.
"I couldn't sleep on Tuesday night, which is unusual because usually I can sleep through anything," he told me from his office in Los Angeles. "I stayed up late and made a to-do list with like 80 things. I figured that was the best therapy."
He also began considering his friend's legacy, and as a Mormon who converted from Catholicism in his early twenties, O'Brien saw historical parallels between his current and former churches.
"I always thought Mitt Romney would be Al Smith," O'Brien said, referring to the first Catholic presidential nominee, who lost in a landslide to Herbert Hoover. "Now I think he's going to be Al Smith and JFK rolled into one person. Even though we didn't win the way JFK did, to come within a couple points of the presidency, I think makes a lasting impact on the faith... It's going to be a non-event next time a Mormon runs."
For a Mormon journalist who'd spent much of the past year examining the religious life of a candidate and coreligionist, his assessment was vaguely troubling. Was he saying editors won't be knocking down my door when Mia Love throws her hat in the ring in 2024?
But after a year of crisscrossing the country with Romney — pestering his campaign for answers about his faith, and writing countless Mormonism-for-dummies primers along the way — I couldn't deny that Romney's career had provided a national education on his young, American-born faith.
And if my experience was any guide, it's an education the country won't be unlearning anytime soon.
Even as his campaign turned him into the world's most famous member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Romney spent much of 2012 publicly evading the subject of his faith.
In speeches, he conducted all manner of rhetorical gymnastics to avoid uttering the word "Mormon." In interviews, he quickly changed the subject every time the topic came up. And to his staff, his instruction was to dodge and deflect all questions regarding his religious beliefs.
He regularly employed variations of the declaration, "I'm not running for pastor-in-chief."
His reluctance to engage the Mormon question was rooted, his aides privately told me, in a bitter 2008 Republican primary. Back then, Romney was trying to outflank John McCain and Rudy Giuliani on the right by presenting himself as a sort of culture warrior — hoping his staunch, conservative values would attract the party's religious base.
But as his staff and family fanned out across Iowa to win over Evangelical voters in the fall of 2007, they were met with rank anti-Mormonism. Local ministers preached sermons against "the Mormon cult" on Sundays, Christian voters routinely confronted the Romneys with Bible verses during retail politics stops, and some people even refused to shake hands with Romney's former Lt. Governor Kerry Healey because they thought she was Mormon.
Romney's first instinct was to try to persuade the religious right that Mormonism was just another Christian sect. He answered complicated theological questions on local talk radio, and delivered a major address at the George Bush Presidential Library titled "Faith in America," designed to emphasize the "common creeds" his church shared with Protestants.
But the more he tried to educate conservative Christians about his religion, the more intense the pushback became. And for the candidate's family, the rejection was deeply disheartening.
On the day after Thanksgiving in 2007, Tagg Romney phoned a longtime family friend, who asked how the effort was going in Iowa.
"It's brutal," the friend recalled a dispirited Tagg responding. "It's just brutal."
When Romney eventually lost Iowa in 2008, many in the Romney clan took it as a repudiation of their religion. And when he gathered the family together in the living room a few years later to discuss the possibility of another run, the wound was still too fresh for some of them, according to a family friend. More than one of his sons raised the concern that another candidacy would result in their faith being dragged through the mud again.
Mitt took their worries seriously, but the team of political strategists he had assembled insisted they could pull off a win without talking religion. The 2012 battle plan would be to present Romney as a stalwart — if one-dimensional — figure who understood business and could fix the economy by sheer force of will. No culture war, no big religion speeches, and certainly no engaging the press as they pursued the inevitable "Mormon angle."
That's where I came in. I joined the campaign's traveling press corps for BuzzFeed just before the New Hampshire primary in January, and I quickly found that my expertise in Romney's religion posed a distinct advantage — not in access or sourcing, necessarily, but in understanding the elusive candidate as an actual person.
When the "mommy wars" of the early spring shone a spotlight on Ann Romney's decision to stay home and raise her kids, I saw classic Mormon gender roles at play. And when critics raised questions about Mitt's participation in a church that barred black men from the priesthood until 1978, I innately understood the conflicted, sometimes tortured, position many devout Mormons found themselves in at that time. As a lifelong Latter-day Saint who grew up in the relatively close-knit Massachusetts Mormon community that Romney once led, I felt I had a unique window into the beliefs and experiences that defined an almost undefinable man.
And that, apparently, left the campaign deeply unsettled.
Multiple people in Romney's orbit — both inside the campaign and out — would later tell me that Boston tried to keep me at arm's length for a long time because they worried my knowledge of the candidate's faith would bait them into a conversation they were dead set against having.
"The campaign really doesn't like the religion stuff being out there, so that's always a concern in dealing with you," one adviser told me, bluntly.
At some level, I could understand their paranoia. I was fluent in a language that their candidate spoke without meaning to, and one that they would never understand. In their view, every seemingly innocuous question I asked had a "gotcha" lurking behind it, and even their most mundane answers might inadvertently signal, to me, greater meaning.
There was little effort to mask this concern as they dealt with me.
Whenever I managed to work the subject of Mormonism into the conversation while chatting with senior strategist Stuart Stevens, the operative's philosophizing and movie-quoting would abruptly give way to a virtual stupor, as he stared at the ground for several seconds in silence before finally shrugging his shoulders. Meanwhile, my Mormon-themed email inquiries to campaign headquarters were almost universally met with the same curt reply, "Ask the church."
(Interestingly enough, whenever I did ask the church — which spent the year working feverishly to assert political neutrality — I noticed a similar discomfort on their part in discussing Romney. The church's public affairs department, I eventually learned, had a policy of never mentioning Romney by name while talking to reporters, referring only to an ambiguous "presidential candidate.")
It was a credit, perhaps, to the campaign's message discipline that in my entire year of covering the election, I never got a single on-the-record answer to a question about Romney's faith.
But the push and pull often left me feeling conflicted. As a Mormon, I intuitively understood Romney's desire to paper over our religion's eccentricities, and disappear the darker chapters of our church's history. The Latter-day Saint longing to feel normal is practically genetic, and I sympathized with the candidate's practiced avoidance of uncomfortable questions. It was a habit I'd formed as an insecure adolescent — squirming in my cafeteria chair as friends asked me about polygamy — and a reflex I'd worked to get over when I was a Mormon missionary.
But as a journalist, I was now the one asking those uncomfortable questions. And as much as I wanted to believe Romney's aides when they insisted religion should have "no part in this election," I knew that couldn't be true. My entire worldview had been colored by my faith; was I really supposed to believe the same wasn't true of Romney?
Besides, there was plenty of evidence that Mormonism remained a very real part of his candidacy.
While Romney's senior staff was composed largely of secular east coast strategists, his campaign offices in Boston were stocked with young, Mormon mini-Mitts, sporting impeccably ironed dress shirts and eager smiles as they filled various junior positions and internships. Some were taking time off from BYU to work for the campaign, others had recently returned from missions, and they quickly gained a reputation among the rest of the staff for bringing an almost baffling level of earnestness to the often cynical work of presidential politics.
The candidate himself also went to extraordinary lengths to observe the practices of his faith while on the campaign trail. Aides said he prayed daily, and was often spotted in moments of privacy — sitting alone on his campaign charter jet, for instance — with his head bowed, and his hands clenched in supplication. He would often take free moments to read the Book of Mormon or Bible on his iPad, and even on the longest, most grueling days, he never took a sip of coffee, which is forbidden by the church.
Reporters in his traveling press corps often wondered why, even as the general election kicked into full gear, Romney insisted on dropping off the campaign trail on Sundays, opting to spend the day with family in Wolfeboro, New Hampshire or La Jolla, California. Some speculated that it was a symptom of his distaste for campaigning, but one aide told me his motives were mostly religious. Even when he was obligated to travel, he made efforts to find a Mormon Sacrament meeting nearby. He also abided by the other Sabbath-related bylaws, abstaining from dining out and and shopping on Sundays.
"He actually follows all those rules," the aide told me. "It's hard to explain to [press] that, no, he's not going to eat out on Sunday, or anything else."
Of course, reporters likely would have respected a simple explanation of the candidate's Sabbath-day observance. But if the Romney campaign had its own set of political commandments by which it lived, one of the most important was, "Thou shalt not discuss the boss's religion."
I often found myself watching Romney bound up the steps of his campaign plane on some midwestern tarmac, marveling at his religious stamina. My spirituality had, regrettably, faded amid the frenetic schedule of the campaign trail. My prayers had become shorter and more utilitarian — Please help me to stay awake during this stump speech — and while I'd managed to successfully eschew coffee, I became reliant on 5-Hour Energy capsules, an only slightly-less-sinful substitute.
But even as I allowed Romney's righteousness to inflict a measure of religious guilt on me, I remained uncertain of whether he even knew that a fellow Mormon was lurking in the back of his plane. Romney wasn't the kind of candidate to hang out with his traveling press corps, and his distance often gave him a sort of televised quality. Even from 50 feet away, he seemed more pixels-and-plasma than flesh-and-blood.
I sometimes thought about how I might bring up our shared religion if I had the chance. Name-drop our alma matter, perhaps? (We both went to Brigham Young University.) Mention a mutual acquaintance in Belmont?
The opportunity never arrived — BuzzFeed, alas, was not among the outlets to score a rare sit-down interview with the candidate — but I did once get the chance to mention it to his wife, Ann.
It was during the Republican primary in Puerto Rico, and Romney had just wrapped up a campaign stop in a suburban plaza. Afterward, a small number of reporters gathered around Mrs. Romney at the rope line, and listened as she praised the raucous mega-rally we had attended the night before.
"It was amazing!" she exclaimed. "Though I couldn't understand anything they were saying. Do any of you speak Spanish?"
A few of the reporters shook their heads, before one of them volunteered, "McKay does."
It was true; I'd become fluent while serving as a Mormon missionary in the Latino neighborhoods of Dallas a few years earlier. It would have been so easy to tell her that as she turned to face me, to let her know that at least one member of her husband's traveling press corps understood this crucial chunk of their lives. But for some reason, I couldn't.
Instead, I lamely muttered something to the effect of, "Yeah, I speak," and let the conversation roll on without me.
Maybe it was because I didn't want my colleagues in the press to think I was using my religion to curry favor. Or maybe I was worried that establishing that link would muddy the waters of the adversarial relationship I was supposed to have with the candidate.
But I think the real reason I hesitated was more simple: I didn't want to feel different.
Around August, something began to change in the way the campaign dealt with the Mormon issue. Romney's press pool was invited to start attending church with him on Sundays. Surrogates were instructed to cooperate with cable-news segments about the candidate's faith. And in a move that initially shocked much of the political class — myself included — an entire block of programming on the final night of the Republican National Convention was devoted to testimonials from Romney's fellow Mormons.
Yes, the stories that were shared dealt more with Mitt's personal compassion than any specific tenets of his religion. But for a faith that had spent the better part of 180 years fighting to gain acceptance into mainstream American society, that night — which also featured an invocational prayer by a longtime Mormon church leader in Massachusetts — will be remembered as an historic one.
At one point, as a Belmont Mormon stood on stage recounting stories of Bishop Romney, I received a text message from my dad, who I think spoke for a lot of Latter-day Saints: "This is surreal."
According to aides, Romney had recognized the historic nature of his nomination as they planned the convention, and it was he who'd insisted that Mormonism be made part of the biographical story the campaign was trying to tell.
Romney never became fully comfortable talking about his Mormonism in public, but the convention seemed to relieve a sort of tension — shrinking his faith from an elephant in the room down to a bite-sized bit of campaign trivia.
As the campaign moved into the general election stage, Republicans remained on guard, as some worried that a desperate Obama campaign might sic its surrogates on the Republican's faith. (I heard the same concern from a number of Mormons.)
One RNC official told me they were prepared to release opposition research dealing with polygamy in Obama's family tree — including passages from a little-noticed memoir by the president's half-sister Auma — if the left tried to make hay of historical Mormon polygamy. But Chicago held its fire, and the issue never surfaced.
On the right, the long-feared Evangelical backlash to Romney's faith never materialized, and there were signs that the religious right was finally accepting conservative Mormons into the fold. In one particularly potent gesture, Billy Graham removed Mormonism from a list of "cults" on his website. That may seem like a low bar to clear, but on election day, Romney ended up winning a larger portion of white evangelicals than John McCain did in 2008.
"This showed that having a common faith was not a litmus test," Mark Demoss, an evangelical adviser to Romney, told the Washington Post after the election. He added that it was "something to feel good about, and there's not a lot to feel good about."
Meanwhile, as grassroots Mormon voters mobilized, some in the conservative movement began to see a real upside to keeping them engaged. The disastrous meltdown of the Romney campaign's get-out-the-vote effort may have masked the fact that the Republican Party reported a substantial uptick in voter contacts over other recent presidential campaigns. Skeptics have claimed the numbers were juiced by counting messages left on answering machines.
But within elite GOP circles, speculation abounded that it was the Mormons, with their missionary zeal, who were driving the numbers upward.
"Bush had his evangelicals, McCain had the veterans who would do anything for him," said one strategist involved in the party's GOTV efforts. "In terms of a base constituency who goes and makes phone call for eight hours for Mitt Romney? It's Mormons."
The strategist added that, based on anecdotal evidence, Mitt's Mormon army was exceptionally good at canvassing.
"If you're someone who's willing to walk around Temple Square and try to talk to people in Estonian, your level of skill in cold calls is probably above average," the strategist told me.
As we neared election day, it became increasingly clear to me that Mormonism was being woven into the social fabric of the political class. Pool reporters began to see trips to church with Romney less as a tantalizing peek into the candidate's strange religion, and more in the way Mormons sometimes view it: a dull chore to be fulfilled out of obligation.
And even some Republican donors — who had long viewed Romney's religion as little more than a line to factor into the balance sheet as they determined how much to give to his campaign — were now becoming fiercely defensive of the faith.
One Romney friend told me about flying cross country on a private jet with a group of wealthy conservatives after an east coast fundraiser, and listening as the candidate's religion came up.
"Mitt's a good guy, a smart guy, but I can't believe how he believes this Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon stuff," one of the donors said, offhandedly.
The jet's owner, a Catholic businessman with no ties to the Mormon Church beyond Romney, became indignant.
"There's no difference between Joseph Smith receiving the Book of Mormon, and Moses going up to Mount Sinai and talking to a burning bush," the jet owner argued.
When the first man half-heartedly disagreed, the owner proceeded.
"What's the difference?" he demanded. "Mitt Romney's a smarter guy than you are, maybe he knows something we don't."
Romney's friend was amazed.
"This was the elite of America, and that conversation was taking place. It was almost surreal," he said. "I mean, that guy was not converting to Mormonism. But what it tells you is that Mitt Romney, because of his example and who he is, has given people a different appreciation for Mormons."
Of course, the rising relevance that Mormonism has enjoyed in 2012 cuts both ways for the church, which now faces the task of disentangling its public image from polarizing Republican politics.
I'm not sufficiently well-acquainted with presidential history to judge the validity of the Al Smith comparisons Romney's supporters are now tossing around. But to determine whether his candidacy got the country more comfortable with the idea of a Mormon president, there's one clear bellwether.
Toward the end of the election, I was sitting on another dark campaign press bus in another battleground state, when a correspondent flopped into the seat behind me and began making casual conversation. His topic of choice: Mormon underwear.
"So, do you wear them?" he asked at one point.
"What do they look like?" he inquired at another.
The questions were generally similar to the ones that had been naughtily whispered among the press corps nine months earlier, but this time the tone was entirely different. The reporter was speaking in full voice, gliding through the conversation with the same nonchalance he exhibited in his assessment of the pulled pork sandwiches we had just eaten for dinner. Romney's underwear — and the faith it symbolized — was no longer considered taboo.
As the bus started up, and began rolling away from the site of the rally, the correspondent remarked, "I saw some pictures of the underwear online. They didn't seem very weird to me."
I know I know I know!!!!!!
And people in churches work within the church, and are very much pressured at times. Have some enjoyment in your faith and if they are not hurting you or anyone else, so what. They are a positive group, leave them alone.
mormonISM is not positive it drives people away from God Almighty.
They do hurt people, they drive people away from God Almighty.
My experiences with mormonISM goes back to 1962, it is neither harmless or positive.
You want me to leave them alone, as a Christian we are to call out false teachings and prophets (it’s Biblical), if you are uncomfortable with my calling them out, it is something you need to take up with God.
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The world's sixth-largest religion and growing, the LDS church proselytizes relentlessly. If it fails to convert you in this life, it will try to get you in the next one by baptizing the dead. (Even Holocaust victims have not been spared this posthumous rite.) A financial and political powerhouse, the LDS church not only dominates most of Utah's social service agencies, but also the government, the public schools, and the media. It even runs the shopping malls. As a result, the church shapes the life of everyone who lives in Utah, Mormon or not.
All-Mormon Supreme Court Spells Theocracy to Disgruntled Utahans
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"Anybody who lives here knows where all the power is," says Matt Gilmore, 90, a lawyer who for many years was general counsel to the Utah Tax Commission.
"You got a Supreme Court that's all Mormon, a Legislature that's practically all Mormon, an executive department headed up by a Mormon and a Republican Party that's all Mormon."
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■ “Some members of the Church have an erroneous idea that when the millennium comes all of the people are going to be swept off the earth except righteous members of the Church. That is not so. There will be millions of people, Catholics, Protestants, agnostics, Mohammedans, people of all classes, and of all beliefs, still permitted to remain upon the face of the earth, but they will be those who have lived clean lives, those who have been free from wickedness and corruption. All who belong, by virtue of their good lives, to the terrestrial order, as well as those who have kept the celestial law, will remain upon the face of the earth during the millennium.
“Eventually, however, the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters do the sea. But there will be need for the preaching of the gospel, after the millennium is brought in, until all men are either converted or pass away” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:86–87).
We find it hilarious that you mormonism defenders get your underwear in a knot about the posting of factual mormon doctrine from mormon sources by a few dozen FReepers at the same time that your leaders are bragging about the following:
We are grateful for the 52,225 full-time missionaries serving in more than 150 countries.16 The sun never sets on righteous missionaries testifying of the Savior mormon church. Think of the spiritual power of 52,000 missionaries, endowed with the Spirit of the Lord Joseph Smith, boldly declaring that there is “no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come … , only in and through the name of Christ. mormon church temple rituals
"My young brethren of the priesthood, I testify of the majesty, but most of all, of the certainty of this magnificent event. The Savior lives. He will return to the earth (the Second Coming) . And whether on this side of the veil or the other, you and I will rejoice in His coming and thank the Lord that He sent us to earth at this time to fulfill our sacred duty of helping prepare the world for His return the mormon theocracy
."other people, who may not yield full obedience to his laws, nor be fully instructed in his covenants, will, nevertheless, have to yield full obedience to his government. For it will be the reign of God upon the earth, and he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world which is legitimately his right” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor [2001], 225).
.....it would take the "god squad" here on FR no more than a few days to target some other Christian sect that did not believe "Exactly As We Do" for the full force of their vinegar and water fusillade.
Well, NS..speaking for myself, if some actual "Christian" (mormonism is not Christian) faith required its members to take the following oath in an arcane temple ritual in order to gain "salvation"...
"You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.
And if a candidate for POTUS had taken this vow numerous times with no guarantee that his Oath of Office to the US would supersede this oath, I would certainly dispute his worthiness to become POTUS regardless of his proclaimed "Christianity".
The whole 'pounding on doors' thing applies to every faith that wants to recruit new members.
Thank God Romney isn't in the White House, working hand in hand with Harry Reid to destroy the first amendment.
Actually it's more in the 6-8 billion a year range, extrapolated from data revealed in a lawsuit in England a few years back.
Thanks, Mr. Robinson!
Good to see. I hope observers take not of these Stepford-wife-on-the-outside, Harry-Reid-on-the-inside tricks.
huh?
What Protestants bang on your door?
The only thing I have ever seen Protestants do is hand out flyers for Easter and Christmas services.
Holly, Mitt's "track record" and a "prophet's" ways are two distinct things.
Had Mitt been POTUS, he would have been beholden to ANY & ALL requests made of him by his "prophet."
You see, some try to compare the situation to Kennedy as a Catholic being beholden to the Pope. But #1...Kennedy never made a vow (that I know of) that everything he owned was consecrated to the church. Romney did.
And secondly there wasn't a history of political overreach statements within recent centuries by popes; I could cite a dozen such statements.
Governors & congressmen -- in terms of "favors" they could be requested to do by a Mormon "prophet"...pales in comparison to THE leader of the free world.
Usually, one starts with a dictionary.
Whose dictionary? These days the meanings of words can change from day to day. See now, I think based upon the dictionary meaning some of my relatives are bigots, but, they consider me a bigot.
NS, #1...if you somehow think that all of these groups are "Christian," well, then I suppose you're in the "naive" category and think that all denominations of bills are equal...and that there's no such thing as "counterfeit bills."
I don't need to hold "heresy trials" because Christendom has largely already agreed that JWs have resurrected the arian heresies which the early church fought.
Likewise, Christian Science has long been deemed a cult.
The Millerites (Seventh Day Adventists) ... has been the closest to having disagreement in the Christian community: Some regard them as a cult, others don't.
...this is the first time I've seen you tear into the Catholics with the same spirit you exhibit when going after the Mormons.hen you get to the heresy trials for Baptists who attend churches that aren't painted white, I'll check back with ya.
Baptists, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, etc. are all part of diverse Christendom.
You'll note I didn't launch into an in-depth exposition of Catholicism, i covered only one aspect...and in defense to the Catholic charge that Protestantism is "too" diverse. All I did is point out that Catholicism is diverse, too. What's wrong with that?
So...back to my counterfeit bills illustration: Some people in history haven't used a $ system (barter system). They opted out of a $money system. Likewise, you opted out of a "God system."
So just as a bartering people won't show a lick of discernment 'tween a real denominational bill vs. a counterfeit bill, a guy who's opted out of "God territory" isn't showing much discernment 'tween a counterfeit belief system vs. the genuine one...
Counterfeit bills -- by virtue of their existence -- show a genuine one exists.
Counterfeit belief systems -- by virtue of their existence -- show genuine ones exist.
And to add to my parallel illustration from my last post, if you were a bartering system type and chose NOT to use $, it would "strengthen" that "conviction no end" to watch retailers fight counterfeiters by teaching their employees to discern the difference 'tween the real thing & a fake.
So...go ahead...rail against the govt watchdogs who go after counterfeiters as well...
Even yesterday, I heard a radio ad targeting those who buy fake brand name stuff on the street...telling people that winds up costing American jobs.
So, go ahead...since you seemingly oppose all "negative" comments about the counterfeiters...start railing on those ads, as well, NS.
I mean what kind of fairy tale world do you live in if you think there's not counterfeiters across the board?
Do you think "faith life" would escape that in a world run in part by demons???
As a follow-up to my last post to you, I wanted to show you the penchant Lds leaders have had for political overreach.
Romney could have been as "pure" as could be -- integrity-wise -- in trying to "separate" his faith from politics. Yet within the hierarchy system of Mormonism, all it would take is one "request" from on high in SLC -- and there that integrity would go. Because Mormons are BOUND to honor WHATEVER their "prophet" says.
I mean did you know a survey of Mormons was taken in the early 1960s, asking them if the "prophet" told them to engage in polygamy, would they do it?
To their credit, 60% said "no"...But 40% said "yes."
Could you imagine 40% of TODAY's mainstream Mormons practicing open polygamy? All because somebody else told them...Doesn't matter if they were 100% "faithful" leading up to such an order; it's rather, all rooted in the Mormon "prophet."
| Lds Leader | Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) | Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words) | By contrast: Roman Catholic leader (like a Pope or John F. Kennedy) | Any similar statements made by a Pope or Kennedy |
| Mitt Romney as POTUS??? | Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? | The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."] | Kennedy made no similar vows to the Catholic church that Romney has made to the Mormon church | No comparative vow |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862) | No parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | The LDS Church -- in 2001 -- thought it well to pull this quote from John Taylor to emphasize it: "The Lord...is desirous to show us how to save ourselves, how to bless ourselves temporally and spiritually, intellectually, morally, physically, POLITICALLY..." (Lds Church owned Deseret News, Nov. 19, 1865, p. 2, as quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor (2001, p. 178). Also from p. 178: "The idea of strictly religious feelings with us, and nothing else, is out of the question...Our religion is more comprehensive than that of the world...it embraces all the interests of humanity in every conceivable phrase..." (Original source: The Gospel Kingdom, 1943, p. 168) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Orson Hyde | President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) | “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic Vatican | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Heber J. Grant | Lds 'Prophet' #7 | "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Harold B. Lee | Lds 'Prophet' #11 | ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Spencer Kimball | Lds 'Prophet' #12 | "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? | Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') | "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic Vatican | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Ezra Taft Benson | Lds 'Prophet' #13 | Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #5 | 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #9 | 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #10 | 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?) | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
| B.H. Roberts | LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s! | “[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED.” The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180 | No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic Vatican | No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence |
And there is nothing wrong with door-to-door preaching. I'm merely making the point that Mormons aren't the only ones that do it.
OK, there's a basic problem here in your language...and yeah, I know our culture keeps extending the youth culture to people in the 30s...but my recommendation is that we as a nation stop treating adults as kids...
So, let's break down a few of those "rules" placed upon Lds adult missionaries, shall we?
Rule #72: 72. Do not arise before your companion.
(one lds missionary to the other, "We will now rise in unison like robotic clones...1...2...3!")
Rule #60 Never be alone.
(Evidentiary item #1 as to how controlling the Lds church can be: "Don't be alone. Ever. For two years straight! You can't even go to the bathroom alone!")
Rule # 75 Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
("But missionary president. Honest. I was trying to obey Rule #60 perfectly when my missionary companion stepped out for a few moments...and she was the only one around...and so I had this huge moral dilemma...Do I obey rule #60 or rule #75????")
Rule #41: Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
(Evidentiary item #2 as to how controlling the Lds church is!)
Rule # 133 Do not spend more than your companion.
Ya know, if you give 9.95% of your income to the Mormon church, you have broken the law of consecration by not tithing and are ineligible for temple access. By .05% you can...miss your daughter's wedding and be kept out of God's presence forever! (Not to mention flunk becoming a full-grown god!)
Well, likewise here, what happens if you spend five cents more than your companion? Haven't you just broken rule #133? And isn't this a rule bound to be broken? So, rather than tempt their Lds missionaries into breaking #133 whenever they buy something, why don't they just make a new rule to ensure it doesn't get broken. Change rule #133 to: "Buy identical items in the same quantity." (Simple, eh?)
Rule 109. Provide community service. (keep reading)
Rule 111: Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
Likewise, if you obey Rule 109, but go 3 minutes over rule 111, you have just obeyed rule 109, but simultaneously have disobeyed rule 111! (Boy, a legalistic minefield!)
C'mon. These are adults. (Not 6th graders...In fact, these are types of rules I wouldn't give even 6th graders!)
Sorry, but nobody deems JWs as "Protestants" -- including JWs themselves.
Mormons & JWs are similar in this way in that NEITHER deem themselves to be Protestant...
They both think they're the ONLY TRUE religious "game" in town...
Documentation for Lds on that: D&C 1:30...and I can get it for you on JWs, if you like.
That's actually what's kind of strange about those who defend Mormonism.
They somehow think that Mormonism's declaration that EVERY other religious entity is false and dead is suppose to get a 100% "lay down" effect...as if nobody's going to respond to that kind of worldwide slander.
The same is true re: JWs.
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