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To: Petruchio; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; MHGinTN
I tend to look at it in a simpler form, as in God is “above” time.

Picture a Globe in your mind. Time is marching happily along following the equator. God, sitting on His Throne at the North Pole. At any given instant He can see every moment in our history, all in the present in His view. Just as we can trace multiple lines of longitude on a globe at the same time. In God’s eye, the past - present - future are all “now” to Him.

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A-G & bb: It appears that, in Petruchio, we have another participant in our discussions of God's "Universal Now"... :-)

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FWIW, APOD has just published a new, "deeper" iteration of the "Hubble Deep Field" image, called "the Hubble Extreme Deep Field". It is a longer exposure (and "sees farther") than, even the "Hubble Ultra Deep Field"!

(Reduced size for posting on FR.) To experience the image in its 'full glory', go the APOD page for 14 OCT 2012, then click on the image to open it at full resolution, then blow it up and "wander around that section of space". Trust me, the experience is awesome -- and humbling...

The HST was set to "stare" at a "spot" in space so small that the image only includes two of the "local" stars in our "Milky Way" galaxy. (Sorta like peering through a tiny "soda straw"...) Aside from those two stars, every other object in that image is a complete, unimaginably huge, billions of stars -- GALAXY! ...and the view is, essentially the same -- regardless of the direction in which we point our "soda straw"!

Of course, we are incapable of perceiving "reality": because our data only arrive at the speed of light, we see each of those galaxies as it was when the photons we see departed it. For a galaxy a thousand light years ago, we see it as (and where) it was in 1012AD.

Only God (looking from His "extra-4D vantage point") can see His entire created universe as it actually is "right NOW". (the "Universal NOW").

So, Petruchio we share the same concept of God's "beyond time" omniscience!

I can't help but wonder if, when we are with Him "Where" He is, we will share that "Universal NOW" viewing capability...

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Wow! Talk about "Hope and Change"...!!! :-)

127 posted on 10/20/2012 12:22:00 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: TXnMA
I tried to explain this once before here. Back in 2002 I had a heart attack while on FR. It took 4 days before someone was able to post a Prayer thread on FR. Yet I felt the effects of those Prayers all the way back to the ambulance ride.

Because God is "above" time, the Prayers He heard on the 16th He acted on back on the 11th, by taking the heart attack and adding it to all the other infirmities He placed on/in Christ during the Crucifixion. In essence my heart attack died with Christ 2000 years ago. All of those points in time are in the now to God.

TXnMA said "I can't help but wonder if, when we are with Him "Where" He is, we will share that "Universal NOW" viewing capability... "

I think so. Obviously, because of my Prayer thread, I have been thinking about death a lot lately. During our time here on Earth, our true essence is in effect held captive within this body. Once free of this body, we are also free from the limitations placed on creation. Death is nothing more than Graduating from Time into Eternity. The very definition of eternity is timelessness. My only hope is that God finds me worthy to remain in His Presence.

I tend to look at things simply. In the Bible God refers to us as sheep. Why? Because sheep are dumb. And compared to God, we are very very dumb. LOL! It says in the Bible that God Spoke Creation into existence. All of creation is made of atoms, aka wee bits of pure energy separated from each other by measurable distances of nothing. God Spoke (provided the energy) that powers Creation. So, creation itself is a part of God.

128 posted on 10/20/2012 2:19:46 PM PDT by Petruchio (I Think . . . Therefor I FReep.)
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To: TXnMA
"I can't help but wonder if, when we are with Him "Where" He is,... "

I am sorry, but this is still bugging me. Because we are right now with God where He is. I tried rather poorly above to explain. Will try again.

Most of what we know of God is from the Bible. We accept the Bible as the "Word of God". To my limited understanding there are a very few things that God is unable to do. Two that come to mind are sin and lie. In the Bible it says God is in all of Creation. With one glaring exception... Hell. That is what makes Hell, well hell. It's not the fire, or Brimstone, nor the torment of the fires of Gehenna. It is the ONLY place in all of Creation where God's Presence is not present. Those who deny God in life are granted just that in death. Destined to be in the only place in creation where God is not present, Hell.

Granted, sometimes it seems like this is hell, but it is not. 0bama has tried to transform the U.S. into hell but failed.

130 posted on 10/20/2012 3:04:22 PM PDT by Petruchio (I Think . . . Therefor I FReep.)
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To: TXnMA; Petruchio; betty boop; MHGinTN
Glorious! Thank you so very much for sharing that deep field picture, dear brother in Christ!

I see something like this, amazed at the enormity of it all, and then I recall that our minds cannot even conceive of what God has prepared for us.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. - I Cor 2:9

What He has prepared is even greater than this.

Praise God!!!

131 posted on 10/20/2012 8:12:21 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: TXnMA; Alamo-Girl; Petruchio; MHGinTN
Petruchio: I tend to look at it in a simpler form, as in God is “above” time.

Picture a Globe in your mind. Time is marching happily along following the equator. God, sitting on His Throne at the North Pole. At any given instant He can see every moment in our history, all in the present in His view. Just as we can trace multiple lines of longitude on a globe at the same time. In God’s eye, the past – present – future are all “now” to Him.

~~~~~~~

TxnMA: A-G & bb: It appears that, in Petruchio, we have another participant in our discussions of God’s “Universal Now”... :-)

Indeed, dear brother in Christ! Definitely Petruchio seems interested in the relativistic aspects of the “time problem….” Still I doubt that his observer sitting on a throne at the North Pole is God. God doesn’t have to sit at the North Pole to know what He knows, from Eternity. This observer merely seems to have a more favorable vantage point of observation than the observer at the equator, relativistically speaking, in regard to answering a particular question.

We have been speaking of the “Eternal Now,” and how it can be conceived by the human mind. I have some impressions, but cannot construct a coherent description. Indeed, this may be entirely beyond my powers.

However, the impressions (clues?):

(1) We have to ask what “eternity” is. Traditionally, eternity has been regarded as synonymous with timelessness. Yet as Wolfhart Pannenberg has pointed out, “If eternity means the divine mode of being, then it is directly concerned with the question of how the reality of God is related to the spatio-temporal universe.” The difficulty of the problem is that God is not “in” time, making Him absolutely immune to direct observation by time-bound human beings.

If we say that eternity means “timelessness,” then its relation to the “time” we humans experience would appear to be a negative, mutually-exclusive one. This point is relevant for eschatology: “[T]he Christian hope for resurrection … does not aim at a completely different life replacing the present one. Rather, it aims at a transformation of this present life to let it participate in the divine glory. Salvation cannot mean pure negation and annihilation of this present life, of this creation of God. Therefore in a Christian perspective time and eternity must have some positive relation. This is also implied in the doctrine of the incarnation, since that means a togetherness of the human and the divine in the person and life of Jesus Christ.”

(2) The normal time sense recognized by human beings can be described as the irreversible series of “punctiliar” moments moving linearly, “horizontally,” from past to present to future. In this model, the future is effectively determined by moments in the past.

Certainly God, one of whose divine attributes is Eternity, does not experience “time” in this way.

As a very great poet, T. S. Eliot put it, “Man lives at the intersection of time and timelessness [eternity].”

To me, the perfect symbol of this is the Holy Cross on which our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified…. The horizontal beam stands for the human conception of time as consisting of serial, irreversible moments, with all natural causation arising from the past; the vertical beam stands for the human extension unto the Eternal Now in this life, which draws all unto itself from the future….

It has been suggested that the Eternal Now is the sounding together of all the spatio-temporal moments that ever have or ever could occur, as the single instantaneous “sounding” of the “all that there is,” as in, for instance, a symphony orchestra…. This is what God knows, from “where” He IS — “outside” of Time and Space altogether.

(3) It might be useful to give a thought to what is meant by “the Creation.” The Holy Bible tells us the Creation was made “in the Beginning.” Instantly I suppose many readers of the Holy Book will refer to their own “normal” time sense, and conclude that the Creation was a one-time, one-off, unrepeatable event.

But what if the true meaning of the Creation is that it is a continuous process unfolding at every moment of time, as human beings experience time?

That is to say, the Creation was not an “event.” It is a process that continues, eternally.

There may be some support from the maths for this view. Pannenberg points to the recent work of a German mathematician, Gunter Ewald of the University of Bochum. Ewald’s theory is based “on the notion of a field, just as the theory of relativity conceives of the spatiotemporal universe as a single field.”

“According to Ewald, this notion can be expanded to include complex numbers [jeepers, we’ve already been there recently!]. Since in the level of complex numbers no linear sequence occurs, the transition from complex numbers to real numbers can be interpreted as a transition into spatiotemporal existence. Generally the field of complex numbers in its relation to real numbers can provide a model of the relation of eternity to spatiotemporal events.” [Itals added.]

Something for afficianados of number theory to contemplate further!

Anyhoot, what this all boils down to, to me: I’m looking for the “hypersurface” of mathematics, which to the physicist probably translates as a “field,” that from a transcendent position WRT the immanent Creation, “informs” and “guides” the Creation in its spatiotemporal unfoldment — but which never positively “determines” it.

Isaac Newton had a helpful name for this field: He called it sensorium Dei. I gather he imagined this as the very interface of divine eternity and the Creator's time-bound (as humans see it) Creation; i.e., as God's relation to the natural world of finite human experience.

Or so it seems to me. Just some thoughts, FWTW.

Thank you so very much, dear TxnMA, for your splendid essay/post — and for the link to the glorious celestial display!


133 posted on 10/21/2012 4:08:09 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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