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To: wesagain
I have heard this argument before (I believe tax rebel Irwin Schiff raised it in the 1970s). I'm second to no one in my hatred of the income tax and the IRS, and I believe that the 16th amendment is the biggest mistake of the last 99 years and the primary enabler of the massive growth of our out-of-control federal government.

That said, I'm not sure I buy this particular argument.

Short of outright repeal, which I would dearly love to see, I think the better Constitutional arguments against the current tax system are those that address the following:

 Notwithstanding our 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination, as well as our 9th Amendment right to privacy (see Roe v. Wade), the government requires us to provide a tax return signed under penalty of perjury, in which we are obligated to provide detailed testimony regarding every aspect of our most private financial activities and relationships, legal or otherwise.

 Notwithstanding our 4th Amendment rights against search and seizure, any American citizen is subject at any time -- even in the complete absence of probable cause – to an intrusive federal audit in which the government has the unlimited power to demand and search our private papers and financial records.

So even though the 16th amendment is, by definition, "the supreme law of the land," I don't see where it authorizes the federal government to violate our other Constitutional rights, which were NOT repealed by the 16th amendment.

8 posted on 09/26/2012 4:58:23 AM PDT by Maceman
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To: Maceman

“Notwithstanding our 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination, as well as our 9th Amendment right to privacy (see Roe v. Wade), the government requires us to provide a tax return signed under penalty of perjury, in which we are obligated to provide detailed testimony regarding every aspect of our most private financial activities and relationships, legal or otherwise.”

Think of the 1040 form as a written confession for a crime(s) that’s you have committed. The District of Criminals continued war against the States never ceased after the Civil War.


22 posted on 09/26/2012 5:29:21 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Maceman

What about the 13th amendment?

When was it repealed???

To learn more about this subject, read here:


ABOUT IRS FORM W-8BEN
FORM #04.202

HTTP://WWW.SEDM.ORG/FORMS/TAX/WITHHOLDING/W-8BEN/ABOUTIRSFORMW-8BEN.HTM

TABLE OF CONTENTS:
1. Why must We Use It?
2. Citizenship, Domicile, and Tax Status Options Summary
3. Withholding on Nonresident Aliens
4. Why the government agrees with this article on the liabilities of “nonresident aliens” not engaged in a “trade or business”
5. Traps to Avoid with this Deceptive Form-WATCH OUT!
5.1 You’re NOT a statutory “U.S. resident”, “U.S. citizen”, “citizen”, or “U.S. person”
5.2 You’re NOT a statutory “Beneficial owner”
5.3 You’re NOT a statutory “Individual”, but rather a “transient foreigner” or “Union state Citizen”
5.4 You’re NOT a statutory “alien”, but rather a “nonresident alien”
5.5 Tricks pulled by usually unscrupulous institutions
5.6 Deception in IRS Publication 519 about the definition of “United States”
6. How to Complete IRS Form W-8BEN
7. Examples
8. Opening bank accounts as a nonresident alien not engaged in a “trade or business” without a Taxpayer Identification Number
9. Backup Withholding
10. Frequently Asked Questions
11. Saving and reusing completed forms
12. Further Reading and Research

1. Why Must We Use It?
The most important aspect of your relationship to the IRS and state taxing authorities is the withholding forms you fill out which identify your citizenship, domicile, and taxpayer status. They are the first contact most people ever have with the tax system and they can have a profound and long-lasting affect on the future interactions one might have with the government. If you either fill out the wrong withholding form or you fill out the right form incorrectly, you can severely prejudice your rights under the law. Nearly every American knows about the IRS Form W-4 withholding form because the private company they work for has most likely mandated (illegally, we might add) that it be filled out and submitted before they are allowed to start work. Not many people, however, know that this is the wrong form to fill out for most Americans and that there is another, better form that more truthfully and accurately represents their status to the payroll department. That form is the IRS Form W-8BEN. Those who submit this form are exempt from backup withholding and 1099 reporting:
“Foreign persons who provide Form W–8BEN, Form W–8ECI, or Form W–8EXP (or applicable documentary evidence) are exempt from backup withholding and Form 1099 reporting.”
[IRS Publication 515, year 2000, p. 3]

The IRS form W-8BEN identifies the submitter as a “nonresident alien” (OFFSITE LINK), which is the status that Americans born anywhere in the country and domiciled within constitutional states of the Union have. We won’t explain here all the nuances of why this is the case, because you can read as much detail about the subject as you like in the following sources:


30 posted on 09/26/2012 5:44:23 AM PDT by phockthis (http://www.supremelaw.org/fedzone11/index.htm ...)
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To: Maceman

Speaking of the 5th amendment, that’s always troubled me vis a vis the Al Capone case. I wonder why failing to report illegal income is a crime when you can’t be compelled to incriminate yourself according to the Constitution. That applies to reporting income at all, it occurs to me. Have tax returns ever been challenged on such grounds? Did the courts proffer a better answer than it would burden the government.


48 posted on 09/26/2012 6:37:13 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Maceman

Interesting.


86 posted on 09/26/2012 8:11:32 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Maceman

The strongest argument of all is the clear and indesputable fact that the 16th was not ratified.

I believe that 11 or 12 of the states significantly limited their ratification with conditions that were never even considered, let alone met.


95 posted on 09/26/2012 8:55:19 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Maceman

Beecraft wrote a book 30 years ago which provided photocopies of each of the legislative record of each State ratifying the 16th Amendment. It proved conclusively that the Amendment did not receive the ratification of enough States [For example, one State passed a resolution that the amendment NOT be ratified — but it was counted as ratified].

The Secretary of State in 1913 put out a press release that the Amendment “appeared to be passed”, Congress voted on laws which implemented it, and the President signed it.

No Governor, legislature, or Court wanted or wants to evaluate the evidence that the 16th Amendment ratification was a complete fraud - just like no Court will listen to any arguement that Obama is not a natural born citizen.


108 posted on 09/26/2012 11:11:13 AM PDT by Mack the knife
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