Posted on 08/26/2012 6:32:13 AM PDT by Zakeet
It's official. The New York Police Department have admitted that all nine people wounded yesterday in the Empire State Building shootout were from bullets they fired at Jeffrey Johnson.
CNN's David Ariosto reports the NYPD said the two officers that confronted Johnson fired a total of 16 shots. "One officer shot nine while another one shot seven," they said. Police commissioner Ray Kelly explained the injured bystanders were hit by ricocheting bullets. The shots hit "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."
[Snip]
The next question the NYPD will have to answer is why the two officers needed to fire 16 bullets to take down one man who, as we can see in the video, was only a few feet away from them.
(Excerpt) Read more at theatlanticwire.com ...
Yes, you do jut.
That's quite possible, owing to the design of the Browning HP, which is very different than that of most 9mms carried by police departments today. The Browning is designed very much like Browning's own 1911, a heavy (2.3 lbs) cast-framed single-action pistol with a noticeably stiffer (7.5 lb). trigger pull than the .45.
But compare that design to a standard 9mm carry gun like the Springfield XD series, the Smith & Wesson M&P, the Sig P226, the H&K P9 or the Glock 17, all of which are polymer-framed double action pistols which weigh considerably less loaded (1.5 lbs or so) and have (to a varying extent) much lighter triggers. Having fired all of the above myself (except the H&K), I have found them (assuming a standard 4-in. barrel police service model configuration) to offer greater sight picture control and less recoil than the Browning. Your mileage may vary, but that's been my experience.
That said, I absolutely love my .45's, both in the classic 1911 design and in the updated polymer-frame concealed carry version offered by Taurus. And there is no doubt that a .45ACP cartridge tipped with a JHP will take a bad guy down like nothing else (short of a Barrett .50 or anything else too heavy to lug around under one's coat).
Yep - Amadou Diallo would agree.
Any of you ever been in that situation? I didn’t think so
Nope tootsie roll, not that exact situation, and I bet you haven't either. OTO a lot of the older generation have been under fire in situations that would cause you and your fellow JBTs to crap THEIR pants - where the enemy is actually shooting back.
NOW all of your bullsh!t aside what do you suppose would have happened if a couple of armed citizens did exactly the same thing as these two did. Honest answer if you're capable of it.
LOL! Said with your best lisp!
Thanks, good points. The main reason for so many hit— the sidewalk there at 9 AM is jammed. I’m surprised they didn’t hit a cabbie or auto. There was a bus pulling up just as this started.
Agree that maybe something else could have been used. Not a taser- say maybe a developed hand held sonic weapon could be directionally used.
It is also, my opinion, the lack of an armed populace. Somebody could have stopped this clown long before he walked around the corner. Too much reliance on big brother govt.— keeping us safe from salt, trans fat,soda pop.... but not from armed loonies.
Attempted dialogue by suggesting that, rather than "fill in the blank" in the vacuum of facts, or repeating the misinformation crap from an idiot reporter as a source. I mean, Atlantic Monthly..really? Never let facts get in the way of a self-conclusion, being so demonstrably well informed and all. No, far better to accuse logical thinking using what can be used to make an informed judgement in the interim-- call that making "excuses". Not being a great lover of a police state, facts and intellect are what it takes to prevent the creation of a police state, not outbursts.
Never told you what to think, your ad hominems here aside. Simply said that there will be experts who will define this and either elucidate facts or create more questions, distinct from the rantings of the keyboard commandos that regularly rail on FR. Self-identifying is one prerogative of choice in an adult world.
Many other seasoned, well-known Freepers (FR having greatly matured since 1998) have tried to impart their considerable sedate experience on what little is known in this event-and they, too have had to bear unthinking emotional "civil" outbursts.
So this dialogue is over en clair, now there's no point, or a need to remove all doubt, having unintentionally tethered a goat. Paper indeed. Deo Vindice.
Sadly, many cops are union spoiled and not that well trained.
How about we try some actual facts instead of basing our opinion on movies from the '80s, hmm? Violent crimes per 100,000 population, 2010:
Detroit ............................... 1,887.4 St. Louis ............................. 1,747.1 Memphis ............................... 1,541.5 Oakland ............................... 1,529.6 Baltimore ............................. 1,455.8 Stocon ................................ 1,380.9 Buffal................................. 1,357.5 Clevelan............................... 1,296.8 Washington............................. 1,241.1 Philadelphia........................... 1,189.4 Kansas City ........................... 1,139.5 Nashville ............................. 1,134.9 Miami ................................. 1,107.7 Tulsa ................................. 1,094.0 Cincinnati ............................ 1,085.6 Atlanta ............................... 1,071.6 Minneapolis ........................... 1,053.7 Milwaukee ............................. 1,044.5 Newark ................................ 1,029.0 Houston ................................. 986.1 Oklahoma City ........................... 927.5 Toledo .................................. 904.2 Boston .................................. 903.5 Pittsburgh .............................. 898.5 Las Vegas ............................... 893.0 Sacramento .............................. 870.3 Anchorage ............................... 837.7 Wichita ................................. 802.9 Albuquerque ............................. 786.8 St. Paul ................................ 751.2 New Orleans ............................. 727.7 Corpus Christi .......................... 719.2 Columbus ................................ 705.2 San Francisco ........................... 702.1 Dallas .................................. 701.0 Mobile .................................. 667.0 Jacksonville ............................ 665.0 Tucson .................................. 631.9 Bakersfield ............................. 631.0 Fresno .................................. 625.9 Tampa ................................... 623.9 Charlotte-Mecklenburg ................... 613.1 San Antonio ............................. 605.8 Long Beach .............................. 588.4 Greensboro .............................. 587.8 Louisville Metro......................... 585.8 New York ................................ 581.7 Fort Worth .............................. 575.1 Lexington ............................... 574.5 Seattle ................................. 566.8 Los Angeles ............................. 559.2 Denver .................................. 542.1 Portland ................................ 540.6 Phoenix ................................. 518.1 Arlington ............................... 501.7 Colorado Springs ........................ 491.8 Omaha ................................... 487.1 Lincoln ................................. 484.5 Riverside ............................... 479.7 Austin .................................. 475.9 El Paso ................................. 458.3 Aurora .................................. 446.1 Santa Ana ............................... 443.8 San Diego ............................... 427.6 Raleigh ................................. 414.6 Mesa .................................... 395.4 Anaheim ................................. 343.0 San Jose ................................ 331.4 Fort Wayne .............................. 290.3 Honolulu ................................ 268.1 Henderson ............................... 205.5 Virginia Beach .......................... 188.1 Plano ................................... 180.8 Chicago ................................. NA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate
Thank you for your reply. It is pretty easy to be critical after an incident such as this. Unfortunately, the backlash from this type of incident is more likely to create counterproductive restrictions on the ability of the police to do their jobs rather than help make our citizens safer.
I would bet that the first reaction of even the harshest critics here when looking down the big barrel of a madman’s .45 would be to pull their own trigger first and keep pulling it until the threat is gone. Once this turned into a gun fight gut instinct took over and all of the options went out the window. Experience and training might have helped the officers confront the man in a safer way. If they had been using different equipment they might have been able to take down the killer with less collateral damage.
Ah, the haughty “sniff” and withdraw, is it?
I never needed the “Atlantic” to tell me what my own eyes can see. And unless you can bring evidence of some exotic anti-wormhole, I don’t need your inane hesitation, either.
One thing you should know about “seasoning” and “maturation,”; it tends to wear on ones ability to suffer fools. Ones “time and tolerance” grows shorter as you become better acquainted with the tactics of the sophist.
As an aside, I myself spent thirty minutes in laser-assisted, dry fire practice last night at easily twice the distance so obvious on the video, and that with a three inch reactive target. Not one shot fell outside the borders of the target unit, though not all in the three inch circle. And I assure you, two seconds is a very long time to aim at such ranges.
If I, as an avocation, am regularly capable of such performance, shouldn’t someone who “bears the sword” professionally acquit himself at least one-fifth as well?
Was I under threat during my practice? Of course not. Did I suffer the effects of adrenaline beating a tom-tom in my ears? No. I don’t pretend to claim my practice session is fair standard to expect of a man facing death. But I do claim that a man that carries a gun as a defining characteristic of his chosen profession should be able to put *every single one* of his shots in a fifteen inch group at half the range I “play.” Inability to do so is NOT the mark of someone competent to go about armed, but rather the mark of someone who has “fallen apart,” and is mindlessly pulling a trigger.
As for your choice to own my comments to others who have chosen to term their opponents “keyboard commandos,” I suppose that is because “the shoe fit,” but it certainly wasn’t something I initiated.
As I’ve said before...just one more reason I won’t ever be visiting NYC.
And it holds 16 rounds in it's twin magazine:
Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
-- Ripley, Aliens
Reported crimes. That’s all that is in that list. Other crimes not accounted for, including crimes by cops.
New York City is a liberal sh*t hole. Always has been, always will be.
P.S. Let’s us know when those 9 victims of this police shooting are listed as victims of violence. We won’t hold our breath.
My 115#, 5'5" fiance finds the M1911 .45 easier for her to handle than the 9mm Beretta with which she was trained in the USAF. Both are really a bit too large for her hands, but that's less of an issue with the M1911 because of the long pull for the M9 for the first round, followed by a single-action pull for the rest. She's also of the opinion that both muzzle blast and muzzle flash are worse with the 9mm than with the .45, but this is dependent on the ammo used, obviously. Nevertheless, the 9mm may require a hot loaded hollowpoint top approach the effectiveness of the .45 ACP at its usual GI loading, and this increases that flash and blast, particularly not a good thing at night.
And after I taught her how to properly hold a M1911 to beat someone to death with it, she found the M9 to be far less convenient for the same task in the same fashion.
Her choice? A .45 ACP lightweight commander, when she doesn't have to conceal it.... [she lives in an open-carry state] And when she needs a hideout rig, she generally carries the 9x18mm ex-East German Makarov pistol that I formerly owned. We came to an agreement.
It's the damn guns! I just hope the PD doesn't have any SUV's.
I see. So it's your position that there is actually more crime in NYC, but for some reason people in Detroit, St. Louis, and other "flyover" cities are three and a half times more likely to report it? Or that the NYPD commits 100,000 violent crimes a year?
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