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Methanol Wins - It’s time to open up the Open Road with H.R. 1687.
NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE ^ | December 1, 2011 | Robert Zubrin

Posted on 12/01/2011 10:55:05 PM PST by neverdem

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1 posted on 12/01/2011 10:55:11 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem
The good doctor puts in his chart price per gallon and miles per dollar.

This is not a fair comparison however. Gasoline is taxed at the state and federal level while Ethanol is subsidized.

Recalculate the chart on a level playing field eliminating taxes and subsidies and then we can discuss the superiority of Ethanol as a fuel.

2 posted on 12/01/2011 11:09:11 PM PST by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: neverdem

Good article.


3 posted on 12/01/2011 11:09:52 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: neverdem
Where did you get gasoline for $2.74 a gallon? Cheapest we can get it around here is $3.39!!!
4 posted on 12/01/2011 11:15:23 PM PST by Forrestfire (("To educate a man in mind and not in morals is to educate a menace to society." Theodore Roosevelt))
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To: neverdem

Thanks for making me aware of this odious bill!

I WILL contact my congressman, in opposition.

The true cost of alky fuel are clearly manipulated in this article, they do not reflect the true expense.

Not only are the tax’s and subsidies not mentioned, neither are the inefficiencies of alcohol production.

The real agenda here is clearly to force all older cars off the road, screwing around with our fuel could do that pretty quickly.

I will NEVER own a “Flex-Fuel”, “Hybrid” or Electric” car, I’m keeping my pre-computer fossil fuel cars for life, the subsidy hungry alky lobby can kiss my @$$!


5 posted on 12/01/2011 11:21:35 PM PST by Loyal Sedition
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To: Loyal Sedition

I don’t think methanol is subsidized.


6 posted on 12/01/2011 11:25:15 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Forrestfire; Pontiac
From the article:

"The spot price shown in the table is the New York Harbor spot price of gasoline and the non-discounted Methanex spot price, both averaged over the past year."

7 posted on 12/01/2011 11:27:16 PM PST by semaj
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To: Pontiac
Pontiac:
The author is referring to Methanol, and not Ethanol.
The article also states that the figures are all based upon PRE-TAX fuel costs.

Neverdem:
Fascinating article. I was not aware that one could make methanol out of ANY biomass. Most things I had read stated that methanol could only be made out of fossil fuels. If it's true that Methanol can be made from any biomass source then it's a no-brainer. I don't see why we don't already do this (except the oil companies might freak out).

Without knowing much about this subject in depth, I can immediately see positives - and not many negatives.
8 posted on 12/01/2011 11:37:11 PM PST by LibertyRocks
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To: Pontiac; neverdem
Pontiac:
The author is referring to Methanol, and not Ethanol.
The article also states that the figures are all based upon PRE-TAX fuel costs.

Neverdem:
Fascinating article. I was not aware that one could make methanol out of ANY biomass. Most things I had read stated that methanol could only be made out of fossil fuels. If it's true that Methanol can be made from any biomass source then it's a no-brainer. I don't see why we don't already do this (except the oil companies might freak out).

Without knowing much about this subject in depth, I can immediately see positives - and not many negatives.
9 posted on 12/01/2011 11:37:24 PM PST by LibertyRocks
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To: LibertyRocks

oops... sorry for the double-post.


10 posted on 12/01/2011 11:37:57 PM PST by LibertyRocks
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To: Pontiac

Methanol not ethanol. One is like is like booze, the other like snooze or go blind.


11 posted on 12/01/2011 11:42:18 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: neverdem

I got an 07 Cobalt with the same 2.2 engine, gets 28-29mpg. runing on methanol could cause a fuel efficiency drop of aroung 18-20%, according to this article. Right now regular gas is just under 3.30/gal in NJ. So, in theory if they sell the stuff for less than 2.60 it may be a good tradeoff. When I first bought it I had the dealer replace the stock exhaust with a Goodwrench low-res exhaust system. It wasn’t cheap but it actually added about 2 extra miles/gal. I got 125k on it already, still runs and looks good as new, so I recovered that cost long ago. It’s well worth it if you don’t mind a little bit of that good old-fashioned glass-pack rumble ;)


12 posted on 12/01/2011 11:47:26 PM PST by Impala64ssa
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To: count-your-change

Methanol is very corrosive - I don’t know how it would do in a car with 10-20 year life, as opposed to a race car that may be torn down every 10 hours of use. It’s also a very nasty poision. The good news is, that it’s amazingly biodegradeable.

It burns almost invisibly, which is fairly dangerous. I’m surprised that the article mentions that methanol attacks Viton, I thought that almost nothing short of hydrofloric acid could.

If you were to design a vehicle engine to run exclusively on methanol or ethanol, the compression ratio could probably be increased to 14:1 or so and/or the timing increased, and this would definitely take a great deal of the sting out of the lower energy density of the fuels.

I think that these fuels have a place in the (possibly near to mid) future, but destroying food (and using quite a bit of petrolueum in fertilizer chemicals) to make it is crazy.


13 posted on 12/01/2011 11:57:28 PM PST by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
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14 posted on 12/02/2011 12:00:19 AM PST by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: The Antiyuppie

Methanol can be made from coal, I think. The efficiency of the process I don’t know. But it too comes with its own set of drawbacks.


15 posted on 12/02/2011 12:10:12 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change; LibertyRocks; neverdem; semaj
My mistake

One further comment.

The only thing keeping the price of gasoline high is the restrictions on oil exploration by the government of the Unite States.

The US has more oil reserves on its territory than Saudi Arabia.

16 posted on 12/02/2011 12:16:13 AM PST by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: neverdem

I think methanol is the future, but the environazis hate it because it is made from coal or natural gas. Ironically it is the easiest (cheapest) liquid fuel to produce and there are so many ways to make it, some are very long term like coal. I’m not a AGW sucker. But it is simple economics, Gasoline is going to continue to increase in price faster then inflation, and so will oil. China and India are increasing demand, and there is just not an infinite supply.

But coal will probably stay steady with inflation for a long time.
Coal can be converted to methane (natural gas), which can be converted to methanol. The price on this process will not go up ether.

Yes it isn’t quite as dense of energy as gasoline, but luckily weight isn’t a huge deal and its possible to stop and refuel. Not like airplanes, which needs to use kerosene and there is no substitute. So it makes sense to save some oil for jets and start powering our ground transport with coal products.

And if you are an enviro, or we still havent come up with anything better and use up almost all our coal 500 years from now, you can make methane from any plant matter. Just let it rot!


17 posted on 12/02/2011 1:31:07 AM PST by Hardslab
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To: The Antiyuppie

Hope this author goes back through and checks the rest of his fuel system soon. A few tanks of methanol might not do much, but as you say, it’s quite corrosive. It’ll chew through not only the pump diaphragm, but his injector seals (and maybe bodies), any seals or gaskets along the fuel lines, and it might do a number on his tank too, if its a plastic one. It’s not as simple to switch over as he says, and it’s not as big of a stretch to run on methanol as it is on ethanol, hence the reluctance to take his bet.


18 posted on 12/02/2011 2:55:31 AM PST by Little Pig (Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici.)
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To: Pontiac
I would add to that the unpredictability of government policy. How can an industry make the long term investments necessary without some assurance of the rules they'll be working under.
19 posted on 12/02/2011 3:19:08 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Little Pig

It’s very damaging to aluminum also.


20 posted on 12/02/2011 3:27:27 AM PST by Dusty Road
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