The night of Herman Cain’s “9-9-9 Plan

Yahoo News ^ | 101111 | Chris Moody

[Fred]

There was one clear winner from Tuesday's Republican presidential debate, based on the simple metrics of name recognition: businessman Herman Cain's "9-9-9 Plan."

Virtually all the candidates at the debate table had something to say about Cain's plan to replace the tax code with three, flat nine-percent federal taxes on consumption, business and income. Cain, once delegated to the remote wings of the debate stage, has enjoyed a surge in the polls ever since he won the straw poll in Orlando, Fla., last month, and at the first debate since he joined former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney and Texas Gov. Rick Perry in the top tier, Cain and his policy proposals took up more of the debate's time than the ideas floated by any other candidate.

Of course, this isn't to say that any of them praised Cain's idea. Far from it. In fact, everyone who had an opportunity took shots at the plan.

[Huck]

I agree. But he’s anything but ashamed. He’s shouting it from the rooftops. If he is he nominee, wait until the general electorate gets a whiff of it. Oh, and then let him explain he REALLY wants a 30% consumption tax on everything. LOL. 4 more years of Obama.

[DTxAg]

It would mean the Dems would have to have a 2/3rds majority in both houses.

No it doesn't. If Congress passes a law or sets a procedural rule that says a 2/3 majority is needed for a tax increase, raising taxes is now a two-step process: Congress votes to change the law or rule to a simple majority, and then Congress votes to increase the tax with a simple majority. Neither one requires a 2/3 majority. Only a constitutional amendment requiring a 2/3 majority would do that.

[11th Commandment]

The fact is any TAX: consumption, sales, income, property... can escalate. It is we the people who need to hold the congress accountable for its unquenchable thirst to tax and spend.

[Marie]

“If elected President, Cain would take at least two years to get his 9-9-9 plan enacted. Then, after two or six more years, someone would come along and raise his daggone sales tax. “

A. They can and do raise and otherwise ‘play’ with our taxes NOW.
B. Cain’s 999 plan is a TRANSITION to the Fair Tax system and an END to income tax.
C. It’s a lot harder to raise sales tax than it is income tax because it’s more visible. Congress would have to fight an informed and aware population in order to raise a sales tax. No. It’s not impossible, but it is harder and more obvious to the average Joe.
D. 999 is better than what we have NOW. The alternative is a continuation of the status quo.

[SoJoCo]

It would mean the Dems would have to have a 2/3rds majority in both houses. Cain has said he wouldn’t sign the bill unless this provision was included.

Such a provision would never make it past the Supreme Court. The Constitution specifies super majorities for veto overrides and amendments only. All other legislation requires only a simple majority.

[DTxAg]

Cain’s 999 plan will resonate with many Americans who trust him to make it happen as he says it will.

Senior citizens now pay no income taxes on Social Security benefits as long as they have no other income. Cain's plan imposes a 9% national sales tax on their purchases, resulting in an immediate 9% reduction in their spending power. Cain's plan will not resonate with them.

For a family of four making the median family income of $49,500, that family takes home $46,088.25 after taxes, and their employer(s) paid $3,786.75 in FICA taxes. Under Cain's plan, that same family takes home $45,045 after taxes, and their employer(s) pay $4,455 in corporate taxes. Also, that family is now subject to the national sales tax, which reduces their spending power to around $41,000. Cain's plan will not resonate with them.

A small business that operates at a loss pays no corporate tax now. A small business that makes no profit because the owners take any profits at the end of the year pays no corporate tax now. Each business pays 7.65% in FICA taxes on its payroll. Under Cain's plan, each business would pay 9% in corporate taxes on its payroll because payroll is not a business deduction under Cain's plan. Cain's plan will not resonate with those business owners.

For large businesses, some would see their taxes increase, while others would see their taxes decrease. Most large companies don't have a 35% tax bill on their profits, though.

This doesn't even include "the poor." The point is, there are lots of voting blocks that see their taxes go up under Cain's plan, and it is flat-out dumb to impose a new national sales tax on Americans without eliminating income taxes or at least guaranteeing that income taxes cannot ever be raised (Constitutional amendment).

And I'm sorry, but it's just silly to say Americans will trust Cain to make it happen just like he says, since Cain can't do anything without Congress.

[SoJoCo]

Your overall taxes will absolutely positively go DOWN...

Tell that to the majority of people in this country who because of deductions and credits under the current tax code are only paying FICA. A 9% income tax is larger than a 5.65% FICA. And a 9% sales tax on just about everything they buy will increase their taxes even more.

[SoJoCo]

Yeah, but Cain also proposes Caincare where everyone gets to write off their health insurance cost. It’s a little confusing.

So how is he going to do that when Cain's 9-9-9 plan allows only deductions for charitable contributions? Are we going to consider insurance companies to be charities?

[DTxAg]

Right above your post I listed some of the people who pay more under Cain's plan.

I can add one more group to the list: seniors who DO have other income besides Social Security.

Consider a couple getting $25,000/year in SS benefits and earning another $25,000 in income. According to a calculator I found, they would pay something like $850 in taxes. Under Cain's plan, they would pay $2,250 in income taxes on the $25,000 wages plus be subject to a 9% national sales tax.

The 9-9-9 plan makes a good soundbite, just don't look at the details.

[SoJoCo]

Consider a couple getting $25,000/year in SS benefits and earning another $25,000 in income. According to a calculator I found, they would pay something like $850 in taxes. Under Cain's plan, they would pay $2,250 in income taxes on the $25,000 wages plus be subject to a 9% national sales tax.

Cain's plan allows for charitable deductions only. If they are getting $25K from Social Security and $25K from other income then won't they get taxed on the whole amount? That would make their taxes $4500 plus the 9% on everything they buy.

[DTxAg]

I’m assuming Cain wouldn’t tax SS benefits. Maybe a valid assumption, maybe not. It would be ridiculously stupid to tax SS benefits, though.

[Pan_Yan]

Have you taken into account the 15% FICA taxes that will no longer be taken out of their salary? How about the effect on prices when corporate tax rates drop from 35% to 9%?

Normally FReepers rage against an unfair progressive tax code that punishes success and rewards those who don't produce anything or haven't planned for their own retirement. Then when someone proposes a plan that would actually level the playing field, stop rewarding failure and make everyone a paying participant in our government they get trashed.

Sad.

[DTxAg]

Have you taken into account the 15% FICA taxes that will no longer be taken out of their salary? How about the effect on prices when corporate tax rates drop from 35% to 9%?

I did. Payroll is no longer a business tax deduction, so a company would pay 9% of an employee's salary in taxes. Now, the company pays 7.65% in taxes. And few companies I know pay 35% in taxes. Ford, for example, had $3 billion in taxable income in 2010 and paid something like $68 million.

[DTxAg]

And for small businesses, they often have little profit at the end of the year once the employees and owners are paid, so they wouldn’t pay 35% on much of anything, but they would see an increase in taxes on payroll.

[Pan_Yan]

And few companies I know pay 35% in taxes.

Exactly right. Some pay much, others pay little. By removing all the loopholes and deductions every company competes on a level field for the first time in decades. With real, fair competition without goverment manipulation I would think the free market would soar and prices would drop.

[DTxAg]

I would think the free market would soar and prices would drop

Hope and change aren't economic plans, particularly for a tax plan that increases taxes on seniors, the average family, "the poor," etc. And Cain's plan doesn't level the playing field, as both companies and individuals in "empowerment zones" get tax breaks others don't.

[JohnKinAK]

Congress can’t just change a law. Read your Constitution.

[SoJoCo]

I’m assuming Cain wouldn’t tax SS benefits. Maybe a valid assumption, maybe not. It would be ridiculously stupid to tax SS benefits, though.

All we can do is go by what he says...or what the website says. No deduction for Social Security has ever been mentioned.

[JohnKinAK]

Please state the exact cite in the Constitution preventing this provision.

You know why you can’t? ‘Cus there isn’t one. Go read the damned thing before you spout non-sense.

[DTxAg]

Congress can’t just change a law.

Agreed, but Congress can change its own internal rules regarding what requires a super-majority vote without any external interference. And if the 2/3 majority rule is a law, Congress can pass a law repealing the 2/3 majority requirement by a simple majority in both houses of Congress and a Dem president. The 2/3 majority for tax increases thing is good PR, though.