The German Plot to Reinvent Greece and Europe

The National Interest ^ | September 30, 2011 | Jacob Heilbrunn

[Cronos]

Hughesian pointed out that “The germany Churchill warned of is not the Germany of today” — this is clearly the case, Germany of today is not the German Empire.

[Berlin_Freeper]

What’s funny is that I am probably a whole lot more anti-EU than he is.

A person who has a problem with Germany should be happy with the failed EU. Not arguing against it. LoL!

[Cronos]

Secondly, Churchill said that comment during WWII and the full quote is the Churchill said that there must be a United States of Europe and then the rest of the statement you quoted.

So, bluntly Churchill wanted to set up this EU.

Also, the fact that some Germans have a particular idea about the Palestinians does not reflect on the official co-operation between the countries and consider the number of stupid people we have in our own country who do not support Israel -- are you then going to blame all of us Americans for the misguided views of some?

[Cronos]

The main argument presented here by you was that simply by being a large part of the bailouts of some others - Germany was positioning itself as an acceptable leader. That is as ridiculous as it is childish.

Exactly. In fact the Germans will lose money whichever way. The Greeks and others are not going to give any collateral of any sort.

I find it incredible that someone who has not spent any time living in any part of Europe can claim that the EU is an empire.

[Cronos]

What’s funny is that I am probably a whole lot more anti-EU than he is.

Oh, the wife (who's Polish) and I are both anti-EU too (she voted against joining in 2004), yet the madness spoken about the EU is just madness. It's more like a brain-numbing bureaucracy that crushes development rather than an "empire" of any sort

you are correct that A person who has a problem with Germany should be happy with the failed EU. Not arguing against it.

[Olog-hai]

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Hughesian pointed out that “The germany Churchill warned of is not the Germany of today” — this is clearly the case, Germany of today is not the German Empire

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You sure about that? Germany currently controls an empire of 26 other European nations. The constitutional court decision of 2009 literally enshrined that. It's the German elites (especially of the CDU) that regard a united Europe under German control as their "passion" as it were. Helmut Kohl once said that "(t)he future will belong to the Germans … when we build the House of Europe" (note not any other nation) and "Might is right in politics and war" (this is the man that started the civil war in Yugoslavia by unilaterally recognizing the independence of Croatia and Slovenia, even against President George H.W. Bush's warnings). The ECB is patterned after the Bundesbank, and the euro is patterned after the Deutsche mark. German elites from Adenauer on down were in pursuit of this kind of union from post-WWII onward; Adenauer cabinet minister Hans Seeborn once said, "Does free Europe want to join Germany? Germany is the heart of Europe, and the limbs must adjust themselves to the heart, not the heart to the limbs"—so that shows their viewpoint on who should be the leader of a united Europe.

Now that they've gotten increased power, watch things more closely.

[Olog-hai]

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I find it incredible that someone who has not spent any time living in any part of Europe can claim that the EU is an empire

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That's not me. I lived in the Republic of Ireland for nine years. And why should it make any difference where one lives anyhow? The view from inside an empire can be quite distorted versus outside, especially when one is deluged with said empire's propaganda.

[Olog-hai]

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Secondly, Churchill said that comment during WWII and the full quote is the Churchill said that there must be a United States of Europe and then the rest of the statement you quoted.

So, bluntly Churchill wanted to set up this EU

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Your logic fails in the face of his quote. He did not want to set it up from the German pattern or by the German elites. But that had already started with the Treaties of Paris and Rome. You certainly can't claim that the English built the EU of today.

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Also, the fact that some Germans have a particular idea about the Palestinians does not reflect on the official cooperation between the countries and consider the number of stupid people we have in our own country who do not support Israel — are you then going to blame all of us Americans for the misguided views of some?

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The USA does not have a majority that believes the lie of the Israeli government conducting a so-called "war of extermination" against Palestinians, or half its population equating the IDF with the Nazi armed forces of WWII. And where did you get "a particular idea about the Palestinians" from, when I cited a "particular idea" about Israel?? never mind the fact that I never, ever brought the word "all" into anything related to Germany's population—"majority", last time I looked, certainly does not mean "all".

[Olog-hai]

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A person who has a problem with Germany should be happy with the failed EU. Not arguing against it

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The EU's not going to break apart. Too many foreign investors are betting on it, and against the USA to boot. You think that the elites, with the state of mind they have had and continue to have, will pass up the opportunity for grabbing global power?

[Cronos]

Cronos: Hughesian pointed out that “The germany Churchill warned of is not the Germany of today” — this is clearly the case, Germany of today is not the German Empire

olog: you sure about that?

Yes. I interact with Poles daily who have no love for Germans and they suspect them of nearly everything (they and the Russians of course). Yet to them as well your theory of Germany currently controls an empire of 26 other European nations. is ludicrous as it has no facts

On the contrary the Germans have been so desperate to redeem themselves for WWII, they have submitted to being slapped around by Greece etc.

To call the EU the German Empire is to ignore facts. To call Germany the cash-cow of the EU is the fact

Kohl: future will belong to the Germans -- I find it very suspicioius that that is neatly excerpted to "the future will belong to the Germans...... when we will build the House of Europe" nice trick -- what was replaced by elipses? Firstly, he said this during German reunification and speaking to French and other leaders -- the "we" is obviously the leaders of the EU at that time and the first part is about German reunification -- nice sleight of hand to excerpt

And you'll be pleased to hear him say about Angela Merkel: "She's ruining my Europe"

If the Euro is patterned after the DM, how come it is collapsing?

[Cronos]

And your logic fails for the Churchill quote — this was stated during WWII not during your idea of the creation of the EU. This was also set for a different time and place — the Germans of that time are not the Germans of today

[NMachiavelli]

"It imposed the Prussian tyranny and brute force over lands that had not known it -- indeed the differences between the Prussians and say the Bavarians still exist and the western Germans were different.The Germans of pre-Prussian era (before the 30-years war) were cultured, scholarly etc., quite unlike our image of Germans which is really the Prussian image" Actually, the 30-years war ended in 1648, the first Prussian King(Frederic I) was crowned in 1701 and before that it was a fairly average duchy in the grand scheme of the Holy Roman Empire. And nobody would have used the terms 'cultured and scholarly' after the horrors of the 30-years war which killed 1/3 of the German population. Germany back then was regarded as a fairly backwards and barbaric cesspool with constant wars and strife between all the little nations, duchies, fiefdoms and city states. Or with the words of Charles V 'I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to my horse' which was later changed by Frederic II 'I speak French to my ambassadors, English to my accountant, Italian to my mistress, Latin to my God and German to my horse' Only after 1740 with the coronation of his grandson Frederic II and the Silesian Wars did Prussia became a hegemonic power in Europe. And Frederic II was also one of the first 'enlightened' monarchs in Europe and was a big advocate of religious tolerance, freedom of speech, independence of court of justice, he strengthened the rights of his commoners and limited the powers of his nobles, all that some time before the french and american revolutions. And the image of germany as a cultured and scholarly people probably started with Frederic II, he spoke several languages fluently, was an accomplished philosopher and historian and invited the brightest thinkers of his time to Potsdam and his academies. He reformed and modernized the state and was one of the first nations to introduced state funded schools and education and literacy became widely spread and was later copied by many nations. Sure Prussia was never squeamish in using military power to accomplish their national interests but 'tyranny' isn't the first trait I would associate with Prussia and for sure not in the context of "over lands that had not known it" most monarchs and their nobles of this time were a lot more autocratic and abusive with their powers. The Prussians were protestants and the Bavarians were catholics and close allies of the Austro-Hungarian empire which were the other big fish in the pond and both empires struggled for centuries over the predominance over the other German states, so no wonder there were big cultural differences. 'The greatest and noblest pleasure which men can have in this world is to discover new truths; and the next is to shake off old prejudices.' 'All religions must be tolerated...for...every man must get to heaven in his own way' 'My people and I have come to an agreement which satisfied us both. They are to say what they please, and I am to do what I please. ' Frederic II

[NMachiavelli]

Somehow all the breaks got eaten up. Sorry for this wall of text.

[Cronos]

Although the 30-years war ended in 1648, the Prussian Duchy had already been formed in the 1500s with the secularization of the Teutonic Order

This was not a fairly average duchy and it was not within the holy Roman Empire -- it was a military state. The Prussian kingdom and thenceforth the German Empire took those characteristics

I said the Germans before the 30-years were cultured, scholarly etc. Also quite frankly the Germans AFTER the 30-years war with the exception of the Prussians WERE cultured and scholarly. Germania was not regarded as backwards or a barbaric cesspool in the 1600s - it was the site of battles but not a barbaric land

Charles V, holy Roman Emperor lived from 1500 to 1558 -- nearly a 100 years before the 30 years war.

The Prussians were a continuous threat from their point of secularisation -- the Polish Kings made a mistake of not eliminating the Duchy when they had the chance

Sure Prussia was never squeamish in using military power to accomplish their national interests but 'tyranny' isn't the first trait I would associate with Prussia and for sure not in the context of "over lands that had not known it" most monarchs and their nobles of this time were a lot more autocratic and abusive with their power -- actually I would. Read about what they did in Poland in the 1800s. They were tyrannical and the entire culture of the Junkers excluded the development of culture besides the glorification of the military.

Frederic II may have SAID all religions are equal but what he really meant was that he would take anyone that was useful to him. His successors were not so nice -- witness the KulturKampf