Posted on 09/19/2011 11:04:53 AM PDT by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears
A southern California couple has been fined $300 dollars for holding Christian Bible study sessions in their home, and could face another $500 for each additional gathering.
City officials in San Juan Capistrano, Calif. say Chuck and Stephanie Fromm are in violation of municipal code 9-3.301, which prohibits “religious, fraternal or non-profit” organizations in residential neighborhoods without a permit. Stephanie hosts a Wednesday Bible study that draws about 20 attendees, and Chuck holds a Sunday service that gets about 50.
The Fromms appealed their citations but were denied and warned future sessions would carry heftier penalties. A statement from the Pacific Justice Institute, which is defending the couple in a lawsuit against the city, said Chuck Fromm was also told regular gatherings of three or more people require a conditional use permit, which can be costly and difficult to obtain.
“How dare they tell us we can’t have whatever we want in our home,” Stephanie Fromm told the Capistrano Dispatch. “We want to be able to use our home. We’ve paid a lot and invested a lot in our home and backyard … I should be able to be hospitable in my home.”
According to the Dispatch, the Fromms live in a neighborhood with large homes and have a corral, barn, pool and huge back lawn on their property, so parking and noise aren’t a problem.
(Excerpt) Read more at theblaze.com ...
Exactly right. The suggestion of getting a storefront was intended to help resolve the dispute they're having, not define what a "church" is. However, they DO need to go out and start a church - since the current "home bible study" methodology that they have going right now is completely without any biblical sanction whatsoever. If they want to follow the scriptural pattern, then they need to organise as a local assembly under an ordained pastor or pastors.
Well, the ONLY Scriptural pattern for the organisation of New Testament Christians is the local church. Neither denominations and hierarchies, nor "free-lancers" in "home bible studies" are following the pattern Jesus Christ set up. Worshipping in a home Bible study is analagous to one of the Old Testament high places - places without God's sanction that man chooses for himself, instead of God choosing for him.
<iTell them its a Bible Study for illegals.
They’ll wave the permit, fines and even find a program to fund the study.
Probably provide a New 2012 Passenger Van , with insurance and maintenance, free gas.</i<p<cr
Only of it’s a Koran study.
Nonsense. Nowhere in the Bible are the Apostles charged with BUILDINGS. Jesus NEVER tells them to build buildings. The PEOPLE are the church. Wherever they meet, Jesus is there. THAT is Scriptural.
This is not about conducting Bible Study or the Frommes worshiping in their home. It’s about conducting religious services for a congregation in their home, effectively making it a church. That’s fine in many communities throughout America; it’s not OK in San Juan Capistrano, where they’ve established their home/church.
The Constitution in its body, leaves to the States that which it does not specifically assign to the federal government. States, in turn, assign to their various municipalities the right to zone as those municipalities see fit, according to the needs and desires of the citizens of the municipalities. The City of San Juan Capistrano set out ordinances within its city limits, including zoning that has certain prohibitions in residential areas.
The First Amendment says that “Congress shall make no law ...respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;....”
We’re not talking about San Juan Capistrano establishing a religion, I believe we can agree on that.
So the remaining question is: is the city of San Juan Capistrano prohibiting, through its zoning ordinances, the free exercise thereof?
How are they doing that? By not allowing a congregation to meet and conduct services in a private home on property that is zoned residential, when the property owners knew, or should have known, that that violates local ordinances? And when there are alternative locations available in San Juan Capistrano that don’t violate the zoning ordinances?
Who is being prohibited from freely expressing their religious beliefs, and how? The only restriction is on where they are choosing to exercise that right.
Were the Frommes targeted? Was the ordinance adopted purposely to stop them from using their home to conduct services for their congregation? Or, did the ordinance precede their ownership?
It’s been decades, but before the last time I sat at a home closing, we were given all the ordinances and covenants of the community in which we were buying. We chose the neighborhood we did specifically because it didn’t have covenants that dictated the color we could paint our house, or how high our fence could be. Did the Frommes read those ordinances/covenants? Don’t they have a responsibility here?
While I appreciate the Frommes being called to preach, I cannot see how their and their congregants’ Constitutional rights are being infringed. Just as there are restrictions on free speech (fire/theater) there are legitimate restrictions on where one can choose to exercise one’s religion.
Have you noticed the places the Freedom of Religion is null and void? Any government property (apparently the COTUS is invalid on government property), in public, and on private property. Other than these three venues, the Freedom of Religion is for everyone.
I speak to missionaries who go into China and Vietnam. Church is legal, as long as it is in a building licensed for Religion. These services are monitored by the government, and the worshipers are filmed going in and coming out.
Home churches are illegal, but that’s where the believers go.
Rom 13:1-2 MKJV
(1) Let every soul be subject to the higher authorities. For there is no authority but of God; the authorities that exist are ordained by God.
(2) So that the one resisting the authority resists the ordinance of God; and the ones who resist will receive judgment to themselves.
You're missing what I'm saying. Yes, the PEOPLE are the church - but just having a random aggregation of people in a Bible study is NOT a "church." The church - which is always and only local in the Scriptures, there is no such thing as any "universal church" - is a specifically organised body of believers. A church is a body of called-out believers, organised under the leadership of a God-called-and-church-recognised pastor, which fulfills the roles of evangelising the lost and edifying the saints, all to the glory of God. What these folks have in their home Bible study is more akin to a parachurch organisation - which are entirely without any scriptural support whatsoever.
6 So these administrators and satraps went as a group to the king and said: “May King Darius live forever! 7 The royal administrators, prefects, satraps, advisers and governors have all agreed that the king should issue an edict and enforce the decree that anyone who prays to any god or human being during the next thirty days, except to you, Your Majesty, shall be thrown into the lions’ den. 8 Now, Your Majesty, issue the decree and put it in writing so that it cannot be altered—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.” 9 So King Darius put the decree in writing.
10 Now when Daniel learned that the decree had been published, he went home to his upstairs room where the windows opened toward Jerusalem. Three times a day he got down on his knees and prayed, giving thanks to his God, just as he had done before. 11 Then these men went as a group and found Daniel praying and asking God for help. 12 So they went to the king and spoke to him about his royal decree: “Did you not publish a decree that during the next thirty days anyone who prays to any god or human being except to you, Your Majesty, would be thrown into the lions’ den?”
The king answered, “The decree stands—in accordance with the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be repealed.”
13 Then they said to the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, Your Majesty, or to the decree you put in writing. He still prays three times a day.”
Change the facts ever so slightly, so the activity is related to a madrassa or mosque, and see how agreeable the city would suddently be with the traffic of 20-50 people, not members of the household, twice a week.
Where does it say that in Scripture?
there is no such thing as any "universal church"
Really? You mean the Apostles had to pick a denomination?
which are entirely without any scriptural support whatsoever.
Your stone edifice and Bible college has no Scriptural support.
Acts 1: 4-5
4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:1-4
1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
That’s a lot of it right there.
It’s not that people necessarily think that people ought to just willy-nilly violate zoning ordinances, etc. It’s just that people who’ve been around the block a few times know how it works.
A community like San Juan Capistrano knows that, however much they might like to, they would never be able to get away with simply telling people, “You can’t have a Bible study because it’s a Bible study.” They know they’d lose the inevitable 1st amendment challenge if they put it that way.
So, what do they do? Selectively enforce things like parking regulations and zoning ordinances and the like. Normally, group gatherings like this wouldn’t be a problem....but when it’s a Bible study, the zoning ordinance, etc. gives them the perfect cover to do what they *really* want to do, which is hassle and possibly stop a Bible study or other Christian religious activity.
18 Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him? You be the judges! 20 As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
Acts 5:27-29
27 The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28 “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!'
>>Well, the ONLY Scriptural pattern for the organisation of New Testament Christians is the local church. Neither denominations and hierarchies, nor “free-lancers” in “home bible studies” are following the pattern Jesus Christ set up. Worshipping in a home Bible study is analagous to one of the Old Testament high places - places without God’s sanction that man chooses for himself, instead of God choosing for him.
<<
Well, now you are getting into theology, which is NOT the business of government to dictate.
And if you are trying to say home Bible studies violate the New Testament...well, I hope you aren’t saying that. Because that is ludicrous.
Actually, the Bible says “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20
So getting together in his name IS sanctioned by God. Wherever. Whenever. Period.
And you DON’T have to define it as a “church.”
>>- but just having a random aggregation of people in a Bible study is NOT a “church.”<<
So make up your mind. Either these people want to be a “church” or not.
You say they are not a church, but if they want to be a church, they need to move.
I don’t see where they ever claimed they wanted to be a church.
>> “Worshipping in a home Bible study is analagous to one of the Old Testament high places - places without God’s sanction that man chooses for himself, instead of God choosing for him.” <<
.
Nonsense!
Most of the gatherings mentioned in the Pauline epistles were in various believer’s homes. Christ said that he is there “whenever two or more of you are gathered in my name.”
>> “My point, which you persistently either overloook or reject, is that the code is aimed at externalities, not at the subject matter being discussed on the property; religious meetings is used as an example, not as a particular restriction” <<
Still invalid. The constitution protects the right to gather.
Little if anything done by cities these days is lawful.
The first century believers met in catacombs (graves) and in houses, in caves, anywhere they wouldn’t be caught in tortured.
Much like in China and other places today.
In WWII Christians had to meet in secret too, as only State Authorized Worship was permitted.
To say God forbids the gathering of believers in worship of Himself in ANY place is absolutely asinine.
Retract that stupid statement, please.
I agree. BTW that last post was not to you, it was meant for Titus.
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