Replies

We are in agreement on what the Founding Fathers stated regarding a faith test. I thought I was clear that I don't understand some of the things that are Mormon doctrine/practice. However, I do know that they believe in Jesus. How then, are they not Christians? "Just because something is online doesn’t make it suspect and just because it is hard printed doesn’t make it true." If it is online, it should not always be taken as truth, just as all hard printed info isn't. Don't you think it is best to scrutinize the sources? If you would like to give me some sources, I will look into them. I'm wary of folks who believe that nothing has changed since 1844. It's like believing that the Reformation in Europe never occured. It's nice to have a civilized, mature discussion with someone. Thanks. Thank you, also, for being truthful in that you don't think anyone except a Christian of an accepted denomination can turn the country around. It's sad that good candidates like a Mohawk/Apache would never garner your vote for Congress. Far better in your view, to have the Democrat. Thanks again. Take care.

Don't you think it is best to scrutinize the sources?

Come on over for a cookout!

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 89

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.

1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

1 A ^aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the ^aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and ^bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with ^apromise, adapted to the capacity of the ^bweak and the weakest of all ^csaints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of ^aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of ^bconspiring men in the last days, I have ^cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man ^adrinketh ^bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, ^apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, ^astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the ^abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome ^aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with ^aprudence and ^bthanksgiving.

12 Yea, ^aflesh also of ^bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used ^csparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be ^aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or ^bfamine.

14 All ^agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And ^athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the ^afood of man; as also the ^bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ^ashall receive ^bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall ^afind ^bwisdom and great ^ctreasures of ^dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall ^arun and not be ^bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the ^adestroying angel shall ^bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

It's sad that good candidates like a Mohawk/Apache would never garner your vote for Congress.

It's sadder that you think no Mohawk or Apache has ever -- or will never -- convert to Christianity!

And frankly, framing that as if it were a mere "race" issue as you have, almost appears as if you framed the argument to attempt to present those who disagree with you in the most "bigoted" manner possible. (Race vs. religion)

Sorry, but Native Americans are NOT automatically traditional religionists. That's just you're framing of it. And you've boldly mis-stated our position; I might suggest you apologize the inference that other posters are racists vs. Mohawks and Apaches.

If you're going to remain civil minus subtle inferences of bigotry, I'll continue dialoguing with you. Otherwise, if you're going to continue these types of word games where you shift all-or-none categorizations -- and can't keep it straight as to whether we are discussing religion or the tribe of somebody -- then perhaps I'll simply "move on."

Now if it was a "newsflash" that Mohawks and Apaches are not "governed" to always & forever practice their "traditional" religion, then I suppose you could tell us all about how that just dawned upon you.

And btw, religion-wise, this pattern works both ways: Some of the cities in Asia Minor (Turkey) where the apostle Paul set up churches mentioned in the New Testament are now Islamic strongholds. And, no, I wouldn't make the mistake of claiming all residents of Asia Minor practice a former ancestor religion like Christianity.

I thought I was clear that I don't understand some of the things that are Mormon doctrine/practice. However, I do know that they believe in Jesus. How then, are they not Christians?

Your 'knowledge' is still inaccurate. For their definition of Jesus is different from that of Christianity. Even former prophet Hinkley stated " (mormons) do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak."

They believe IN a Jesus that -

- was not eternal (ie Jesus was created as a spirit child)
- Is not the Second Person of the Trinity, but another separate 'god' among a pantheon of gods.
- that had to 'progress' to godhood, just like 'heavenly father' had to.

These are just a few of the major doctrinal differences that separate mormons from Christianity. So how are they NOT Christians you ask - because they do not worship the same Jesus - who's Person, nature and work are diametrically opposed to that of Christianity.

Does that mess with your mind? The apostle Paul warned of those who "preached another Jesus" (2Cor 11:4) as well as "another gospel" (2Cor 11:4; Gal 1:6-7). The definition of the Jesus of mormonism is not the same as preached by Paul (and the rest of Christianity). So just because they may say they believe in Jesus - doesn't mean that they believe in the same Jesus of Christianity.

I'm wary of folks who believe that nothing has changed since 1844. It's like believing that the Reformation in Europe never occured.

In essence, many things have not changed in mormonism as well as many things have changed. But their fundamental 'testimony' always goes back to 1830s 'revelation' by smith.

However, I do know that they believe in Jesus. How then, are they not Christians?

- - - - -
It is WHAT they believe. Even demons recognize Jesus as the son of God, that doesn’t make them Christians. Many people believe Jesus existed or was a great prophet. They are not Christians either. What you believe about the person work and nature of Jesus Christ DOES matter.

The Mormon Jesus is contrary to the Jesus of the Bible.

The Mormon Jesus...
...was not always God
...had to earn His godhood by being morally perfect
...is just an example to us that we can be morally perfect and earn godhood ourselves
...is the ‘spirit brother’ (equivelent spiritually in the pre-existence) of Lucifer and the rest of us.
...beat out Lucifer to be the ‘savior’
...paid for sins in the garden not on the Cross
...didn’t have to die at all to atone for sin
...died only to be resurrected to show we would ALL be resurrected
...is more of a loan shark than a Savior. The ‘atonement’ that happened in the Garden is really a ‘loan’ that we have to pay back with our works
...was married and probably a polygamist.

Now tell me, how many Christians would recognize THIS Jesus?

I do scritinize ALL my sources, that is how I got out of Mormonism. That is also why I listed the pages I did. Elsie used LDS sources he finds online.

On the outside things look like they have changed in Mormonism, but that is PR, the core doctrines and beliefs of the members haven’t changed that much. I saw that first had when I was Mormon and it makes sense that they haven’t. Mormonisms main point is that ALL churches other than Mormonism are apostate, and of the Devil. Thus Smith had to ‘restore’ the ‘one true church’. If they actually changed doctrine, they they would lose that ‘restoration’, and become a reformed church just like the ones they claim are apostates.

I do understand that the LDS appear a certain way, that is why I was drawn to them as a teenager. I also saw that what they show the outside is vastly different than what the reality is.

I do this because I want people to know the truth about Mormonism, the truth that the LDS church hides from its members and its members hide from the outside world. I have nothing to hide.

Please feel free to let me know if you have any more questions or would like me to source anything. I quit sourcing awhile ago because people complained about the long posts, but will source upon request.

It’s sad that good candidates like a Mohawk/Apache would never garner your vote for Congress. Far better in your view, to have the Democrat.

=- - - - - - -
First, I don’t know a single native American who runs or votes Republican, so that is a straw man. And I grew up on one Indian reservation and moved next to another. I know plenty of Indians.

Secondly, it isn’t about race, it is about religion. If a Native American is a Christian and a Conservative (not just a republican) then I would vote for them. No problem. But I don’t see that happening.

I will not vote for a non-Christian for a very simple reason. They do not share my worldview and we have enough issues with Christianity being removed from this country through the lies of religious pluralism and I cannot see a non-Christian doing anything to stop that. The nominal Christians we have in office are bad enough.

And I didn’t list ‘accepted denominations’ as you claimed. I listed 4 NON-CHRISTIAN cults that would be excluded. Do not twist my words.