[RnMomof7]

No word games..if as you assert Jesus died for the sins of all men then all men are saved..

The minute one says Jesus made salvation available for some men.. then he did not die for the sins of all men did he? He only died for the sins of He men that choose it?

It seems to me that you limit salvation according to Catholic standards so Catholics actually have a limited atonement ..it is available to men that want to be saved by Catholic standards .

Is that somehow better than having God limit the atonement?

Jhn 6:37 — All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Does God have a free will?

[Natural Law]

"No word games..if as you assert Jesus died for the sins of all men then all men are saved.."

I'm buying into a limited construct as a premise for this discussion in which only two alternatives are considered. I've made the teachings of the Church known to you. Reject them at your own peril.

[Cronos]

rn: Jesus died for the sins of all men then all men are saved.

Your logic is faultly. Jesus died for the sins of all men

1. John 4:42 42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

   1 John 2:2 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

   Now if you want to deny 1 John 2:2 which says so clear that Christ is the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world and if you want to deny 1 Timothy 4:10 that Jesus Christ is "the Savior of all men," go ahead....

[Cronos]

Rn, you quote John 6:37 out of context of the entire book of John. Do you not read John 15:1-6

1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

"If a man abide not in me, his is cast forth..."