Posted on 01/30/2011 2:26:12 PM PST by fabrizio
Jvette:
Yes, the Anglican Clergy that come into the Catholic Church will be ordained as the Catholic Church sees the need to be sure that the sacraments that these Men will celebrate are valid and thus are proper means of Grace for all those who participate in them and receive them. The 3 recent Anglican Bishops were ordained with no conditions, i.e. Fr. Newton, Fr. Broadhust, and Fr. Burnham.
Another Anglican Bishop, Bishop Barnes is to be ordained as a Catholic priest as well and recently the Dean of the Episcopal Cathedral for Episcopal Diocese of North Dakota [what I guess is like an auxillary Bishop in the Catholic CHurch] resigned his post and will seek ordination as a Catholic Priest as well. His name is Rev. Sellers.
However, there is at least 1 case where a former Anglican Bishop was ordained sub conditione. Graham Leonard was conditionally ordained as a Catholic priests by orders of Pope John Paul II because when he was ordained as an Anglican clergyman in 1964, there was at least 1 Bishop from the Dutch Old Catholic Church that rejected Vatican I. At that time, it was unclear as to whether the ole Catholics still retained proper Ordination Rites but also they may have had proper ordination Rites, so he was conditionally ordained as a Catholic Priest.
He was given the title of Monsignor by the Pope and was given the honor of being a Papal chaplain which means he probably got the honor to preach at a Mass with Pope John Paul the II in the audience.
There once was a vicar of Salisbury,
Whose manners were quite halisbury-scalisbury.
He ran around Hampshire,
Without any Pampshire,
Till the bishop compelled him to Walisbury.
(you also need to know that Hampshire is commonly abbreviated as Hants.)
AnAmericanMother:
No doubt the Liturgical beauty of Crammer’s translations puts the ICEL translations from the 1970’s to shame. However, slowly but surely, our English translations of the Latin Rite are coming around, thanks be to God first and foremost and thanks be to God for sending us Pope Benedict who has a great respect for Liturgical Tradition.
Also, I too am a fan of Fr. Z at What does prayer really say. It is on my Catholic blog daily checklist.
In Anthony Trollope's novels he made plain how hard a Dean can make life for a Bishop if they are at loggerheads (but it's clear that everybody is supposed to be cheering against Bishop Proudie and especially his abominable wife).
Thanks for the info.
It’s an amazing thing that is happening isn’t it?
Praise be to God.
A woman at church today said she had seen some of the new translations for Mass and was not very happy about them.
I guess there will be some who will fight it or grumble about it.
I haven’t seen anything so I don’t know what’s coming.
Interesting in that the Rite originated in what was the traditional stomping grounds of King Arthur, not to mention Stonehenge.
Thanks be to God, the new translation looks like an enormous improvement.
And again, a hidden grace: those horrible Haugen and Haas Masses are rendered useless at a stroke. We went to a music conference on the New Translation and got advance copies of several rewrites of 'popular' settings. The publishers and 'composers' thought they would be sneaky and just tweak the music a little to fit the new words. BIG mistake, as any singer could have told them. Everybody's automatic habit is going to take over and they will sing right over the 'tweaks' before they realize they were there. The publishers will be happy because they will sell lots and lots of revised settings before people realize they are un-singable.
Our parish isn't participating. We will use the Missa de Angelis in Latin once a month, and our Music Director is composing two new Mass settings, one for penitential seasons and one brighter one for festivals and ordinary time. He has done a test drive of the first and it sounds good. And our rector is thrilled by all the money he's going to save!
AnAmericanMother:
Thanks very much for the Clarification. I wasn’t sure what “Dean” meant in the context of Anglican/Episcopalian Clergy.
“He didn’t favor Spain over England for any reason except that Henry was simply wrong.”
But he most certainly did favor Spain over England. This much isn’t even arguable amongst honest men. Henry was wrong about many many things. He was absolutely right to defend England against the injustices of the pope.
“Don’t you think it’s a little odd that your hero, Henry,”
Stop right there. Defend this statement.
Jvette:
Not to be overly judgmental of your fellow parishoner but she wouldn’t be one of those people who freaked out on New Years eve 1969 and hasn’t come to grips that the 1960’s and Kumbaya Liturgy is dieing slowly but surely.
“IMO, it was the Church of England that defected.”
Most Catholics should believe this if they are to remain Catholics.
“Henry VIII NEEDED a son to succeed him”
His daughters certainly were no slouches in causing mayhem, but yes, to preserve the Tudor name that is true.
I am not sure since she is not one with whom I have had any real conversations about faith.
We both belong to Catholic Daughters and do a lot of charity work and such together. She’s a real dynamo and wonderful if you need something done.
I don’t even know why she mentioned that about the new prayers at Mass, but she did.
I didn’t have time to ask her anything else.
Did she have any specific complaints? I've heard some interesting ones, but it mostly boils down to the critics thinking some words are too hard for John and Mary Catholic - like "consubstantial". I might prefer Cranmer's consciously Englished "being of one substance", but anybody who doesn't recognize the word can look it up, and sensible priests will explain things in their homilies during the runup to Advent 2011.
I've read the new translation and like it very much, but you can tell because I like Cranmer that hard words don't scare me much and accuracy in translation comes first.
Some people also object that the new Mass is "too elevated" and "too elaborate" and doesn't "speak to the people". Of course that's really the first criticism slightly repackaged, but I don't think we should address God in Church the same way we talk to our buddies around the water cooler in the office. Elevated language is probably a Good Thing when talking to the Lord of All Creation.
You can read some substantial samples of the new translation here: Roman Missal. Some differences you'll immediately note: "And with your spirit" is back, instead of "And also with you." The Confiteor has reinstituted "though my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault" and the striking of the breast. The Gloria has "peace on earth to people of good will" (quite close to the Latin: "et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.") The Creed has gone back to the literal translation of the Latin: "I believe" not "We believe", and words have been changed to more closely follow the Latin - the "consubstantial" I mentioned already, "all things visible and invisible", "incarnate of the Virgin Mary", and so forth. The Sanctus says "Lord God of Hosts" which is again much closer to the Latin.
If you go through you'll recognize little bits and pieces that have been altered. It's all an improvement, and I'm personally thrilled because it's all much closer to the old Anglican translation.
Easy enough to say ~ but there are “limits”
It may be she is one though.
She is a little older than me.
I was only 9 in 1969 so I don’t remember the changes too well.
I do remember the music changed, we hung banners in the church and we no longer knelt at the altar rail for communion.
I think it is probably that she is a very orderly person and maybe doesn’t take to well to change.
I hope I haven’t given you a false sense of her.
She truly is a lovely person, dedicated to the Church but not one to really go in depth on theology and such.
See you our pastures wide and lone,(Kipling was talking about Sussex, but it's too good to waste.)
Where the red oxen browse?
O there was a City thronged and known,
Ere London boasted a house.
Maybe at some point a present or future pope will aver that kissing a Koran was a mistake too.
In the meantime if individual conservative minded erstwhile Anglican protestant congregations want to join, say, the Southern Baptist Convention or the Church of God or a conservative Lutheran synod, they’d likely get the right hand of fellowship.
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