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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
You know, as much as Kopp tries to make it LOOK like the Leyvas was "unsure," Leyvas' actual words reveal somebody who's pretty sure that he saw something highly unusual, and in So Cal skies, an eastbound airliner leaving a dramatic contrail is as everyday as McDonald's. In any case, the VIDEO is the only true and indisputable evidence, not Leyvas' word, and sure as hell not some hobby photographer in Long Beach with a bunch of unverifiable photos. The video Leyvas shot tells you everything you need to know because of the angle of the setting sun. It reveals a vertical plume arcing northwest -- among other things.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of people who've seen missile launches and who've weighed in on virtually every online forum, from YouTube to LA Times to FR to the San Fran Chronicle, state immediately and confidently: the video looks like the missile launches they've seen.

The majority of FReepers who think it was a contrail have never seen a missile launch (ask them -- I have), but -- like every cognizant American with decent eyesight -- have seen lots of airline contrails that, when frozen in a still photos, LOOK like pictures they've seen of missile plumes. They are flattered (or flatter themselves) that a) they are being calm and reasonable, and that b) they are smarter than the average bear, including that poor dumb bastard cameraman who coudn't even tell the dif between a common airline contrail and a missile plume. Their condensation trail conclusion, built on all kinds of pretend things including an imaginary "optical illusion" involving the curvature of the earth, is ENTIRELY SELF GRATIFYING on three counts: they get to think they're smarter, they get to think they're calmer, and they get to think they're safer.

And those of us who've lived in close range to frequent missile launches laugh at people who "reasonalby" point out as proof, "Well, if it was a missile launch, why didn't anybody hear a sonic boom, huh? That's proof right there that it must have been an airliner!" *sigh* In my 53 years, I've seen many dozens of missile launches, with the naked eye and with binoculars, from distances ranging from 19 miles to 160 miles, not including a shuttle launch in Florida at a distance I estimate of 10 to 12 miles. And do you know, in ALL of those launches, I never once heard a sonic boom. See, those of us who've seen missile launches are a lot harder to fool than those who haven't, especially those who haven't who ALSO think they're the smartest guys in the room and everybody else is pretty stupid.

As for Leyvas supposedly being "unsure," if he had claimed to be "sure" of what it was, red flags should have gone up all around. OF COURSE HE'S NOT SURE WHAT IT WAS! He'd be lying if said he was, just like these contrail folks are lying when they say they're sure it was an eastbound airliner. I'm only 99.9 percent sure it was a missile, myself, and come to that conclusion by elimination of other possibilities. But back to how "unsure" Leyvas was -- I'll bet there are several things Leyvas is sure it wasn't, though nobody put the question to him that way. I venture to say he was 99 percent sure it wasn't a commercial jet heading east, a common occurance that the guy sees probably a dozen times in any working day.

385 posted on 12/15/2010 11:41:49 AM PST by Finny ("Raise hell. Vote smart." -- Ted Nugent)
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To: Arthur Wildfire! March
That said, while I'm 99.9 percent sure it was a missile, I am far less sanguine that I know whose missile it was. Myself, for a number of reasons, some of which I won't divulge here, think it was one of ours and one of several test launches that the cameraman finally caught. Another thing that folks who live way inland just don't get -- how distances appear on an ocean horizon. If a small boat is only four or so miles offshore, it's invisible to anyone on the beach because it is below the horizon. Thirty-five miles out at sea from the coastline is WAY below the horizon from a sea-level POV on the beach.

And the object creating the plume was heading AWAY from So Cal, not toward it. It's to be expected that it was barely noticed by So Cal's millions -- at least, if you're familiar with the area and the ocean. Folks who've never lived here nor lived oceanfront, have zero idea of the on-site realities.

ON THE OTHER HAND, other folks I know who are more knowledgeable than I am with regard to military defense, aviation, and missiles, think it wasn't one of ours. *sigh* None of them thinks it was an airliner and in fact, snort in amused contempt when they learn that there are people who've actually seen the video and still think (or claim) it was an eastbound airliner!!!

Having watched Vandenberg missile launches for many, many decades, however, I've come to be pretty impressed with our missileers and still think that what Leyvas caught on film was a test that probably bodes ill for our enemies. :^) But I am disgusted and dismayed at an "official" line so lame that it tries to pass it off as an eastbound UPS plane. It's an insult to people's intelligence.

387 posted on 12/15/2010 1:08:10 PM PST by Finny ("Raise hell. Vote smart." -- Ted Nugent)
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To: Finny; fabian

WND quoted both leading sources [Warren & Leyvas] as either convinced it’s not a missile or might not be a missile. Therefore, the claim of a ‘fabrication’ and ‘tale’ seems impossible to me. Fabricating doubt is absolute rubbish.

And why were people so eager to back up this slander?


474 posted on 12/16/2010 6:05:47 AM PST by Arthur Wildfire! March (George Washington: [Government] is a dangerous servant and a terrible master.)
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