Posted on 09/30/2010 7:54:18 PM PDT by Special Agent Anthony DiNozzo
Our former NR colleague, Joe Sobran, passed away today after a long battle with a variety of ailments. He was relatively young, just 64, and while physically beaten at the end, he also departed spiritually triumphant.
Surely, in short order, there will be ample reflection — much of it critical — on the hyper-talented, hyper-controversial writer. There will be a recounting of his history at NR, the break, the following years, and Joe’s soured relationship with WFB (happily, they rekindled their friendship before Bill passed away). Good, let’s discuss all that, and more. But later. Right now, let us, if only for a minute, pray for the repose of his soul, to hope: That he abides now with his old boss, and they together with our Creator. For the peace that proved so elusive in this lifetime, Joe, may you now have it.
Actually looking back at your post that wasn’t what you said so I apologize.
That's a fair point, they're not all anti-Christian. So then on the obverse what charges can a Christian level against the Talmud,Judaism and Jews without being called an anti-semite?
All of this is off topic though and to the original post: Joseph Sobran - Vechnaya Pamyat.
There’s nothing wrong with saying that one disagrees with Jewish theology. What people mostly object to is making up fake Talmud quotes or distorting existing ones for unsavory goals.
The Talmud is absolutely hostile to Jesus Christ, blasphemes him....
Now, how about Christians who fundamentally disagree with Zionism? Are they anti - semitic or just like the 85% of American Jews who by their political philosophy also disagree with Zionism?
What was your FR screen name the last time you got zotted?
I just gave to the Freepathon, have you?
He was a neo-Nazi?
Wow!
Typical troll response. Try being honest for once in your life...what was your FR name the last time you got zotted? Come on, show me you have a little self respect.
Good riddance to Nazi rubbish.
It would be interesting to know how many of those who quote it as evidence of insidiousness can actually describe themselves as proficient in rabbinic Hebrew or late Aramaic.
One has to also keep in mind that Jews don’t regard the Talmud as Divinely inspired. It’s filled with debates and exposition from various sources.
RIP
According to Muslims, the Koran is not just divinely inspired, but divinely dictated word for word in the Arabic tongue. It is the normative standard for belief among Muslims. Only a tiny minority of Muslims argue that the Koran need not be taken literally, and this school of thought is quite recent.
and quotations from the New Testament are used to damn Christians. During the "Passion of the Christ" debate, many people took issue with the gospel accounts themselves and deemed the narrative to be unacceptable.
As I recall, quite a few of those misguided critics were self-professed Christians themselves. And Christians are indeed required to defend the whole text of the New Testament, since we hold it to be divinely inspired and to be normative for belief.
The Talmud enjoys no special protection from criticism. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
The Talmud is not Scripture, let alone the normative Scripture of Judaism. The Torah is. That important distinction being made, there is another point: how do you critique the Talmud? The Koran and New Testament are texts that make declarations and assertions about absolutes. The Talmud is an enormous collection of debates and commentaries about the Torah, usually in the form of disputes over whether interpretation A by Rabbi X is better or worse than interpretation B by Rabbi Y. Very often there is no clear answer. A random quotation from the Talmud, devoid of any context, completely ignores the nature of the text.
Not even close. First, there are plenty of critical translations of both texts that have been produced by adherents of both faiths that allow non-adherents access to scholarly editions. Also, the New Testament is about 400 pages of text and the Koran is about 250 pages in translation. A non-adherent can pick up a translation and read it in a day and get the sense of it, without becoming an expert of course.
Moreover there are more than a hundred million people who can read the Koran in the original with comprehension and at least ten million who can do the same with the New Testament. Plenty of critiques of both texts come from people who are very proficient in the languages - one of the most prominent critics of the New Testament is Bart Ehrman, a former Christian who is considered to be an expert in the text to the extent of having assisted in the editing of the standard text.
When it comes to the Talmud, there is no standard translation. The closest is the Steinsaltz, which is recent. The Talmud is written in Rabbinic Hebrew (a different dialect than the Biblical Hebrew that so many Christian scholars have studied), Eastern Aramaic (a different dialect from the Biblical Aramaic that has been studied by a smaller number of Christian scholars), and even a large amount of transliterated Old French. Moreover, the Talmud is not written discursively like the New Testament and Koran, but in a very technical jargon full of abbreviations and references. Add to this the size of the Talmud, probably 4000 pages in full translation, and you have a text that very few non-Jews have the education or the patience to read in full even in translation. Certainly only a small minority of self-professed Jews have the education or the patience themselves.
The reality is that those who quote the Talmud to "damn" Jews have no concept of what the Talmud is, what it is for, how the text works, how accurate the supposed translation they are using is, or whether the supposed quote is in context.
It is much more likely that a critic of the New Testament or the Koran has a clue about what they are discussing. I have never heard of a critic of the Talmud who had any clue at all.
Many Jews don’t even read the Talmud. It’s primarily read by the highly orthodox only. The average Jewish family who Bar Mitzvahs their son and goes to Temple on the High Holidays most likely never set their eyes on it.
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