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Restaurant incident reveals confusion over open carry(WI)
madison.com ^ | 21 September, 2010 | SANDY CULLEN

Posted on 09/23/2010 5:24:36 AM PDT by marktwain

A 62-year-old woman visiting a local Culver's sees several restaurant patrons with guns on holsters in plain view.

She doesn't know that Wisconsin law allows people to openly carry a firearm, so she notifies authorities, later telling them, "I didn't want to be that one person that saw guns and didn't call and something horrible happens."

Officers arrive to find five armed men at the restaurant near East Towne Mall. In an effort to determine whether there is any threat to public safety, they ask to see the men's identification to make sure they're not felons, who are prohibited from possessing firearms.

To some, the actions by Madison police Saturday evening are reasonable. But members of gun rights organizations say police had no reason to suspect the men were felons. And what happened next, they say, amounted to the illegal search and detention of two of the men when they refused to provide their IDs.

Shawn M. Winrich, 33, of Madison, said he remained silent when police asked if he would provide his ID. Police then told him he was being placed under arrest, and he was handcuffed, disarmed, searched and held until police determined he was not a felon, Winrich said.

Winrich and Frank R. Hannan-Rock, 53, of Racine, were then given municipal citations for obstructing an officer, Madison police spokesman Joel DeSpain said.

But Auric Gold, secretary of Wisconsin Carry, and Mike Stollenwerk, cofounder of OpenCarry.org, said police do not have the right to demand that people identify themselves without probable cause to believe they've committed or are about to commit a crime.

That was not the case with the five Wisconsin Carry members who had simply gotten together to meet and have a meal, Winrich said.

Winrich said he began carrying a gun about four months ago for personal safety and routinely takes it anywhere it is lawfully permitted without incident.

"People know it is legal and it's not something to be concerned about," he said. "Most people really don't have much of a problem with it. They're just kind of curious."

But Winrich, who made an audio recording of the encounter with Madison police, said he carries a recorder in case a problem arises. He said he chose not to give his ID to Madison police because of "the attitude and the overstepping of authority that they had."

Wisconsin Carry won a $10,000 judgement against the city of Racine and its police department after Hannan-Rock was involved in a similar incident there, Gold said.

Openly carrying a firearm is "just like anybody else carrying a carrot down the street, or a cell phone," Stollenwerk said, adding that police in the 43 states that allow some form of open carry have become accustomed to people's right to have a firearm. "This stuff doesn't happen in the rest of the country anymore."

Madison Police North District Capt. Cameron McLay said he believes officers acted appropriately in responding to a report of armed men in a public place in an urban setting, and the caller's concern that something might happen.

McLay said police were going into "a highly ambiguous situation" and had to determine if a crime had been or was about to be committed and preserve public safety, while assuring the rights of all involved. "This is what the officers did in this case to the best of their ability."

But McLay questioned whether obstruction was the correct citation given the circumstances. On Monday, detectives were sent to Culver's for further investigation to determine if another criminal charge, such as disorderly conduct, is warranted, McLay said.

Based on initial police reports, he acknowledged, "There is no indication that a disturbance had taken place."

McLay declined to comment on the legality of searching and detaining Winrich and Hannan-Rock until the police investigation is completed.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: banglist; opencarry; police; wi
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To: econjack

It’s a sad day in America when law enforcement has to be sued into compliance with the law.

I hope the gun group gets a lot more than $10k from these thug cops this time.


61 posted on 09/23/2010 6:27:24 AM PDT by chilltherats (First, kill all the lawyers (now that they ARE the tyrants).......)
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To: CynicalBear

I think she did. She said they were wearing weapons.


62 posted on 09/23/2010 6:28:19 AM PDT by stuartcr (Nancy Pelosi-Super MILF.................................Moron I'd Like to Forget)
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To: I Buried My Guns

No way do we want 911 operators making such determinations based on 911 calls.

That’s insane, imo.

I’d want that very limited. Like if someone called and said a squirrel was talking to them. They can dismiss those types of calls.


63 posted on 09/23/2010 6:28:42 AM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: mad_as_he$$
Very useful citation. FReepers should read it. I especially liked this part -- "Stop-and-identify laws have their roots in early English vagrancy laws that required suspected vagrants to face arrest unless they gave a “good account” of themselves; this practice, in turn, derived from the common-law power of any person to arrest suspicious persons and detain them until they gave “a good account″ of themselves. Modern stop-and-identify laws combine aspects of the old vagrancy laws with a guide for police officers conducting investigatory stops, such as those authorized under Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)." The current law goes back to vagrancy laws -- THAT could be applied to 'are you here legally?' ... the law is always interesting if not maddening.
64 posted on 09/23/2010 6:30:02 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: econjack

>>> Why else would you carry a tape recorder with you?

Gluteus Protectus.


65 posted on 09/23/2010 6:32:40 AM PDT by Keith in Iowa (FR Class of 1998 | TV News is an oxymoron. | MSNBC = Moonbats Spouting Nothing But Crap.)
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To: ltc8k6

I fail to see the insanity of a 911 operater getting the facts and saying “so, according to what you are telling me, these men are acting in a perfectly normal manner and are in full compliance with the law, but you are wigging out because of your own ignorance? an officer is NOT on his way”.


66 posted on 09/23/2010 6:33:48 AM PDT by I Buried My Guns (Novare Res!)
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To: nuconvert
"what’s the big deal about handing a police officer your driver’s license?"

Much as I support the 2nd amendment, I agree. If they had a bottle of booze at the table, there would be some ID required.

67 posted on 09/23/2010 6:33:56 AM PDT by cookcounty (Dec 31st is coming: .....Stop Obama's Midnight Jack-Up!)
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To: marktwain
But Auric Gold, secretary of Wisconsin Carry

Somebody's dad was a James Bond fan.

68 posted on 09/23/2010 6:34:04 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: ltc8k6
Using your (lack of) logic, the police could have demanded ID from everyone in the restaurant with a fork or knife. Just get over yourself....the 911 caller was a moron. No different from the dumbass woman who called 911 here back because Burger King wouldn't make her a Western Whopper. The five men were breaking no laws and the caller had not one trace of evidence that they intended to.
69 posted on 09/23/2010 6:36:05 AM PDT by Niteranger68 (I believe in man-made political climate change.)
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To: Dead Corpse

Yes. “Are the men threatening anyone? Or are they just eating? Just eating? They are within their Rights. HAve a nice day.”

Easy-peasey. So easy even a liberal can do it. Can you?


does the police know this when they recived the call?
so you say when someone calls the police they should just not care and stay “home”?
Wow if this would be the case the crime rate would skyrocket even more. If this would be the case why not rob a bank while open carry because all i had to do is smilling at the next officer i encounter outside of the bank so he believes that i´m a law abinding citizen too and there for he will never dare to investigate me to check if i have something to do with this crime.


70 posted on 09/23/2010 6:36:44 AM PDT by darkside321
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To: ltc8k6

The cop has to have a valid reason to ask for your identification. The fact that an old lady got her panties in a wad is not a valid reason.

Consider this: The cops now know they stepped in it. They now charge the men with disturbing the peace on the strength of the old lady who was nervous. The cops were sued by this group before, successfully. So, they’ve steppped in it again, same error as before and got sued successfully then, so this time they’re trying to hide behind an old lady in order to validate charges of disturbing the peace so that they ostensibly can provide/justify at least the appearance of probable cause for detaining them and forcing them to show their ID, which was the basis for the original suit. They’re back-pedaling, in other words, to try to make a case, any case, against these men to avoid a lawsuit. If the cops can make the charges stick, then that means they had probable cause, technically speaking, and therefore no grounds for another suit.


71 posted on 09/23/2010 6:37:26 AM PDT by chilltherats (First, kill all the lawyers (now that they ARE the tyrants).......)
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To: stuartcr
No, but as someone mentioned earlier, they were investigating.

No they weren't. At best they were fishing, and it's more likely they were harassing.

72 posted on 09/23/2010 6:39:28 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years)
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To: econjack
It seems like Winrich is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Why else would you carry a tape recorder with you?

These days, every smartphone is a "tape recorder".

You might want to reconsider the basis and assumptions behind your question.

73 posted on 09/23/2010 6:39:39 AM PDT by Zeppo ("Happy Pony is on - and I'm NOT missing Happy Pony")
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To: ltc8k6

That’s not how it works. John Q. Citizen doesn’t decide. The cops are required to assess the situation when they arrive on scene in response to a complaint call. Often they have to tell the caller/complaining witness that there is no violation and they have to walk away.

Just because someone is upset about something doesn’t mean they have a legitimate complaint that LE can act on.


74 posted on 09/23/2010 6:40:35 AM PDT by chilltherats (First, kill all the lawyers (now that they ARE the tyrants).......)
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To: ltc8k6
Again, please read. The ID discussion is now far superceded by further developments. Please try to follow the thread.

Yeah, even the police admit you don't have a leg to stand on.

75 posted on 09/23/2010 6:43:00 AM PDT by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousand years)
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To: Dead Corpse

1. Fine the lady for calling 911 because she’s confused and stupid.

2. Fire the 911 operator for not enquiring what the purpose of the call was, exactly what was going on, why the lady is calling 911 and the ultimately why the operator dispatched a car to the scene.

3.) Fine the police for not asking who called 911 when they got to the scene and not ticketing her for abusing it’s function. Investigate why the police were harassing certain individuals for no reason.


76 posted on 09/23/2010 6:43:10 AM PDT by Electric Graffiti (I'm armed and Amish.)
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To: Blueflag

No.


77 posted on 09/23/2010 6:43:52 AM PDT by chilltherats (First, kill all the lawyers (now that they ARE the tyrants).......)
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To: nuconvert

ID-ing an American without reasonable belief that a crime has occurred, or is about to occur, is not in hte cop’s job description.

America is not a police state. Yet.

But the statists are trying.


78 posted on 09/23/2010 6:44:37 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: econjack

“It seems like Winrich is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Why else would you carry a tape recorder with you?”

The reasoned and prudent now carry a recorder because the police are now not your friend, indeed they are basically your hostile public servant who has been allowed to believe he is the master.


79 posted on 09/23/2010 6:46:33 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is essential to examine principles,)
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To: Blueflag
Really? For that to be true, you must see something in this fact pattern to demonstrate that "the officer reasonably suspect[ed] that such person [was]committing, [was]about to commit or ha[d] committed a crime.."

Ok...I'll bite...please let me know what part of going about their day engaged in lawful activity gave these officers reasonable suspicion that these gentlemen had committed or were about to commit a crime?

80 posted on 09/23/2010 6:46:47 AM PDT by grady ("Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading." - Unknown)
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