Posted on 09/23/2010 5:24:36 AM PDT by marktwain
A 62-year-old woman visiting a local Culver's sees several restaurant patrons with guns on holsters in plain view.
She doesn't know that Wisconsin law allows people to openly carry a firearm, so she notifies authorities, later telling them, "I didn't want to be that one person that saw guns and didn't call and something horrible happens."
Officers arrive to find five armed men at the restaurant near East Towne Mall. In an effort to determine whether there is any threat to public safety, they ask to see the men's identification to make sure they're not felons, who are prohibited from possessing firearms.
To some, the actions by Madison police Saturday evening are reasonable. But members of gun rights organizations say police had no reason to suspect the men were felons. And what happened next, they say, amounted to the illegal search and detention of two of the men when they refused to provide their IDs.
Shawn M. Winrich, 33, of Madison, said he remained silent when police asked if he would provide his ID. Police then told him he was being placed under arrest, and he was handcuffed, disarmed, searched and held until police determined he was not a felon, Winrich said.
Winrich and Frank R. Hannan-Rock, 53, of Racine, were then given municipal citations for obstructing an officer, Madison police spokesman Joel DeSpain said.
But Auric Gold, secretary of Wisconsin Carry, and Mike Stollenwerk, cofounder of OpenCarry.org, said police do not have the right to demand that people identify themselves without probable cause to believe they've committed or are about to commit a crime.
That was not the case with the five Wisconsin Carry members who had simply gotten together to meet and have a meal, Winrich said.
Winrich said he began carrying a gun about four months ago for personal safety and routinely takes it anywhere it is lawfully permitted without incident.
"People know it is legal and it's not something to be concerned about," he said. "Most people really don't have much of a problem with it. They're just kind of curious."
But Winrich, who made an audio recording of the encounter with Madison police, said he carries a recorder in case a problem arises. He said he chose not to give his ID to Madison police because of "the attitude and the overstepping of authority that they had."
Wisconsin Carry won a $10,000 judgement against the city of Racine and its police department after Hannan-Rock was involved in a similar incident there, Gold said.
Openly carrying a firearm is "just like anybody else carrying a carrot down the street, or a cell phone," Stollenwerk said, adding that police in the 43 states that allow some form of open carry have become accustomed to people's right to have a firearm. "This stuff doesn't happen in the rest of the country anymore."
Madison Police North District Capt. Cameron McLay said he believes officers acted appropriately in responding to a report of armed men in a public place in an urban setting, and the caller's concern that something might happen.
McLay said police were going into "a highly ambiguous situation" and had to determine if a crime had been or was about to be committed and preserve public safety, while assuring the rights of all involved. "This is what the officers did in this case to the best of their ability."
But McLay questioned whether obstruction was the correct citation given the circumstances. On Monday, detectives were sent to Culver's for further investigation to determine if another criminal charge, such as disorderly conduct, is warranted, McLay said.
Based on initial police reports, he acknowledged, "There is no indication that a disturbance had taken place."
McLay declined to comment on the legality of searching and detaining Winrich and Hannan-Rock until the police investigation is completed.
They weren’t driving. Driving is a privilege. No relevance whatsoever.
Ah Uber-Liberal Madison. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy (except for Ann Arbor MI)
We must be cautious.
See post #12 below yours, please.
That’s like saying every black person is a welfare scammer. Well he’s carrying a gun he must be a felon. BS. Just ninny libs in Madison.
please note, from the post your referenced —
“Chief Noble Wray admitted police erred in issuing citations for obstructing officers to the two men who refused to identify themselves to officers sent to the restaurant “
NOT a ‘crime’ afterall, eh?
;-)
I don’t *know* who’s right here as far as the law goes, but I’d sure like to BE CERTAIN of the answer. *IF* you are just living your life, must you provide ID when demanded by a LEO? ... I just wanna know ...
This could land the man with a felony charge. Many states are making recording of a cop in the line of duty a crime, whether done on purpose or inadvertently (a guy with a helmet cam who forgot it was rolling recently got jail time). They claim it impededs their ability to interview witnesses who normally don't want to get involved (i.e. illegals and drug users). First and second amendments be damned.
Carrying is NOT “probable cause”!
Anybody at any time “could be a felon”, or in the country illegally....
How could the operator know if they were carrying legally? They could have been felons, that’s why the ID check
Have you ever heard of presumption of innocence? We don't have to prove we're obeying the law. They have to prove we're not. There was no probable cause here.
No, but as someone mentioned earlier, they were investigating.
Where did you ever get the idea that I think it’s wrong to openly carry? You might want to go back and follow the thread and what I was responding to rather than going off half cocked. (Yeah, that was intended.) I’m not your enemy or even your opponent.
Amen!
By way of analogy —
“I pulled 26 year-old Mr and Mrs. Demtricus and La Shonda Greene over because they were observably black (African-American) in a Mercedes S500 in a nice neighborhood, and I needed to ascertain they had not stolen the car or were otherwise engaged, or intended to engage in felonious actions. They were initially indignant and refused to provide ID, so I arrested them for DTP and had their car impounded. I was unaware Mr. Greene had recently signed with the Green Bay Packers.”
The specifics differ, but the principle(s) is the same.
Not everyone gets a call to be investigated. What should the police have done? They couldn’t just walk in, look and walk out could they? They asked for ID, which I feel is OK and should be complied with. After that, it went wrong.
OK. Fine. But you wrote “It’s called having a chip on your shoulder and asking for a fight.”
I inferred you meant the open carry gentlemen were looking for a fight, simply by openly carrying. Ipso facto you saw their actions as ‘wrong.’
Just askin’ ... WHEN therefore is it right and OK to openly carry?
And besides, my Sig is double action, and it doesn’t do half-cocked ;-)
Have you ever heard of presumption of innocence? We don’t have to prove we’re obeying the law. They have to prove we’re not. There was no probable cause here.
No, the police cannot ask for ID unless they have a reason, which they clearly had in this case.
Not liking it, doesn’t change it or make it go away.
The police have to respond to calls and investigate them, even if they turn out to be from a nut. There’s nothing the police can do about that.
But the further developments in the case make this discussion moot, so you have a nice day.
Sounds like the cops admitted they didn’t have any real probable cause. They can’t just ask for ID without it...
Law abiding citizens having a nice dinner is clear probable cause?
You are either mistaken or joking.
They clearly had cause to ask for ID’s as they were investigating a 911 call, but again, the further developments make the ID discussion moot, so there’s no point in continuing...
No. There wasn't. Or is people exercising their Rights now probable cause?
“what’s the big deal about handing a police officer your driver’s license?”
For one, they were not driving anything but silverware.
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