Ex-FBI **LON HORIUCHI** Hired by H.S Precision, Inc. of South Dakota (rifle stocks)

Let me make sure I have this straight:

You have it as straight as Janye Edgar

1. alleged threats the Secret Service investigated. no charges

2. Sammy Weaver may have been no Eagle Scout (but The Famous But Incompetent kills them too) but as far as he knew he shot at a trespasser who just killed his dog.

3, Shooting an armed male not actually threatening anyone is illegal - whatever the Rules of Engagement the FIB invents say.

41 posted on 05/31/2010 8:49:54 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (May 15: It's Jessica Watson Day!)

You may want to do a little more research on this before you rush to judgment.

The Feds in this case were wrong from the start. Weaver was set up then they went after him. He was totally justified to protect his family and property from these jackbooted thugs.

42 posted on 05/31/2010 8:50:55 PM PDT by Snardius

Jedgarlives,

Like the man said get your facts straight moron. One, Weaver was not a white supremist he was a separatist. He wanted to live with his own kind just like Italian Americans, Mexican Americans, Black Americans, etc. Two, he didn’t brainwash his son, his son killed a guy because this stranger crawling around his yard waring “camo” had just killed his dog. As for the arrest warrant, the arrest warrant had an incorrect summons date on it. That’s why Weaver didn’t show up in court. His wife was shot through a closed door holding a baby in her arms. Someone asked in here why were they trying to set Weaver up, they wanted Randy Weaver to rat two buddies out and he wouldn’t do it. Finally, if the government was so righteous, why did they pay Weaver a little over $5 million as a settlement?

43 posted on 05/31/2010 8:52:17 PM PDT by Mtn Pass

J Edgar Hoover was a real pillar of morality and ethics wasn’t he. He was blackmailed by the mafia for his homosexual lifestyle. J Edgar, Larry Potts and Lon are real gems.

44 posted on 05/31/2010 8:55:25 PM PDT by Frantzie (Democrats = Party of I*lam)

Who was the secretary employed by that took these notes on the screen? Are these Randy’s notes? Idaho’s notes, or the government’s notes?

45 posted on 05/31/2010 8:59:11 PM PDT by Mtn Pass

“J Edgar Hoover was a real pillar of morality and ethics wasn’t he. He was blackmailed by the mafia for his homosexual lifestyle. J Edgar, Larry Potts and Lon are real gems.”

I imagine he looked a lot like Aunt Bea in his dress.

46 posted on 05/31/2010 9:09:12 PM PDT by bwc2221

I grew up with "the Untouchables", and "The FBI in Peace and War" -- then I investigated OKCBOMB -- and encountered the real FBI.

~~~~~~~~~

SAIC Danny Defenbaugh to the press: "We covered the crater to protect water-soluble evidence."

Morning of the bombing. That is red, muddy water filling the crater...

'Nuff said...

47 posted on 05/31/2010 9:23:07 PM PDT by TXnMA

To: jedgarlives; Lurker

Are you stoned?

Your “facts” are way way wrong...and your spelling sucks.

Beside that, anyone who obviously admires a cross-dressing homosexual deviant enough to adopt his name as your screen-name might have some ‘issues’ to resolve before having any credibility here.

48 posted on 05/31/2010 9:23:34 PM PDT by panaxanax

Let me make sure I have this straight..." - jedgarlives

Maybe these words, taken directly from the Department of Justice report will better help in understanding why people here feel the way they do toward Horiuchi...:

"Our review found numerous problems with the conduct ofthe FBI at Ruby Ridge. Although we concluded that the decision to deploy the HRT to Ruby Ridge was appropriate and consistent with Department policy, we do not believe that the FBI's initial attempts at intelligence gathering at the scene were sufficiently thorough. We also found serious problems with the terms of the Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge. Certain portions of these Rules not only departed from the FBI's standard deadly force policy but also contravened the Constitution of the United States. In addition, we found these Rules to be imprecise and believe that they may have created anatmosphere that encouraged the use of deadly force thereby having the effect of contributing to an unintentional death.

With regard to the two shots fired on August 22, we concluded that the first shot met the standard of "objective reasonableness" the Constitution requires for the legal use of deadly force but that the second shot did not satisfy thatstandard. It is our conclusion that the sniper/observer who took the second shot intended to shoot Kevin Harris but accidentally killed Vicki Weaver whom he did not see behind the curtained door. We also found the internal FBI review of the shooting incident has not been sufficiently thorough and reached incorrect conclusions about the second shot.

Our examination of the command and control of the crisisby the FBI, found numerous shortcomings. These shortcoming sincluded initial inadequacies in utilizing negotiating personnel, communicating with FBI Headquarters, documenting decisions and securing the site.

During and after the crisis, the crime scenes were searched by many law enforcement officials under the direct supervision of the FBI. We found the FBI's handling of the crime scene searches to be inadequate including its failure to use basic crime scene techniques in collecting evidence. Furthermore, the general disorganization and inexperience of some of the participants coupled with inaccuracies in the searches adversely affected the prosecution and contributed to the negative impression of the government generated during the trial. We found no evidence that these deficiencies were intentional or that the FBI staged evidence for the prosecution's benefit."

This is just a portion of the document from the Department of Justice... A thorough review of the transcripts from the Senate investigation go a long way toward seeing the problems also.

Now... I'm not big on the White Separatist folks (for the record, and according to numerous government documentation gathered "after the fact", Weaver was a Separatist, not a Supremist) but people have a right to believe what they want to believe. That is the great thing about this country (their rights stop when they are infringing on mine.) Just because we don't agree with the man's ideology, doesn't lessen his rights as a citizen. I don't like what he believed at that time (he has changed, according to many) but he had a right to believe it. Regarding his alledged threat to President Reagan, this from the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility Ruby Ridge Task Force Report:

"In 1984, Randy Weaver and neighbor Terry Kinnison had a dispute over a $3,000 land deal. (Kinnison subsequently lost the lawsuit and was ordered to pay Weaver an additional $2,100 in court costs and damages.) Kinnison wrote letters to the FBI, Secret Service, and county sheriff alleging Weaver had threatened to kill the Pope, the President, and the governor of Idaho. In January 1985, the FBI and the Secret Service started an investigation. In February, Randy and Vicki Weaver met with two FBI agents, two Secret Service agents, and the Boundary County sheriff and his chief investigator and were interviewed for hours. While the Secret Service was told that Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nations and that he had a large weapons cache at his residence, Weaver denied the allegations and no charges were filed."

So... Evidently, the feds didn't feel like there was anything to this story.

As far as his kid being brainwashed into shooting a Federal Agent... Well, it was Kevin Harris that fired the fatal shot on the agent, not the boy. The agent was killed after: 1) agent shot the dog, 2) young boy sees a man holding weapon, realizes the man just killed his dog and was leveling the weapon at him, so young boy fires in the direction of unknown man, an agent 3) Agent shoots and kills boy, and then 4) Kevin Harris fires the shot that kills the agent. Kevin Harris was charged with murder, that charge being dismissed because of the circumstances.

Now... Having said all of this... I'm not into Cop-bashing... (I grew up in a house full of law enforcement - dad and his friends) But, I am also not into people being assigned to the HRT that don't understand the fact that "collateral damage" is not acceptable in situations like the one that occurred at Ruby Ridge. Eveyone behind a trigger has to know and understand their limitations... I really don't care whether someone is a law enforcement officer or a civilian: YOU ARE LEGALLY, MORALLY, AND FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY ROUND YOU FIRE. Horiuchi either a) intentionally fired into a cabin without caring what he hit (so he is responsible for the death of an innocent person), or b) he attempted to make a shot for which he was not prepared or able to accurately complete (in which case he would again responsible for the death of an innocent person.)

I am not in favor of law enforcement agencies working paramilitary style operations... They almost always have a problem, and one bit of bad information means trouble. Law enforcement is meant to enforce the law, and keep the bad guys from hurting others. Military units are meant to destroy people and infrastructure in order to bring about a swift end to a conflict between nations or groups of nations - hopefully sooner than later one side makes a decision regarding "is it worth it?". When law enforcement takes on a military role, innocent people die - too much uncontroled firepower in a civilian environment is not a good thing. When military takes on a law enforcement role, innocent people die - usually the ones in military uniforms, because they are being forced to abide by some assinine set of Rules of Engagement brought on by a "law enforcment" role that they have been handed in the middle of a war zone.

Ruby Ridge was a disaster for both sides... Weaver lost his family. Agents' families are missing husbands/fathers. But this is what happens when federal agencies get too high-handed and forget that they are law enforcement, not military. (BATFE is, technically, a tax collection agency. But it was decided that all federal officers should carry a gun. Look what BATFE has grown into - they now have airpower stronger than many third world nations... SHEEESSHHH!)

To paraphrase Fred Thompson (love him or hate him, he said this one right): "We are here, and spending all this time and money on these hearings, because of an old boy that cut 2 inches too much off of a shotgun barrel, and it escalated to this."

Just my .02...

Respectfully, and with regards,
Raven6

49 posted on 05/31/2010 9:25:27 PM PDT by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)

Water source: damaged air conditioning chiller uphill from the crater...

50 posted on 05/31/2010 9:27:25 PM PDT by TXnMA

Some of us may have done that..but it was never our mission....

be gentle when u pick our spot in hell.........

51 posted on 05/31/2010 9:30:07 PM PDT by M-cubed

If you had one single fact straight you might have a point. But you don't. So you're just another a**hole with a misinformed opinion.

Wrong answer,,, you pull the trigger, you are responsible for the outcome, period! Excuses are for liberals.

52 posted on 05/31/2010 9:33:39 PM PDT by 2aberro

you pull the trigger, you are responsible for the outcome, period!

Your answer is better than mine. I don't say that often.

53 posted on 05/31/2010 9:38:01 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)

Oh... And by the way... My next stock will not be from H-S Precision, though the H-S stock on my M25 has served me well. Can't see spending money with a company that would hire this guy. Of all the folks they could have hired, they hired a guy whose most famous shot killed an innocent woman holding her child?

Just.... damn.

There's any number of truly qualified guys returning from Southwest Asia that could outshoot Horiuchi, even if their optics were nasty, the heat mirage was wicked, and the wind was 0 with sudden gusts to 15. These guys know what a shooter needs, can walk the walk, and would certainly garner the respect. H-S hired a zero instead of a hero...

Raven6

54 posted on 05/31/2010 9:42:34 PM PDT by Raven6 (The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.)

You don’t “have it straight.” Check your facts. Horiuchi is scum.

55 posted on 05/31/2010 9:49:51 PM PDT by karnage (worn arguments and old attitudes)

I believe it was 1/4 an inch.

56 posted on 05/31/2010 9:52:31 PM PDT by karnage (worn arguments and old attitudes)

dry up sonny. take your liberal nazi jack boot loving crap elsewhere...maybe back to the democratic underground or some such where the rest of you bleeding heart liberal America haters infest. good God, what the hell is wrong with you junior? grow up. leave your folk’s home and get out into the real world.

57 posted on 05/31/2010 10:28:06 PM PDT by bobby.223

You haven’t got anything but a completely bogus story, pal.

58 posted on 05/31/2010 10:44:53 PM PDT by TigersEye (0basma's father was a British subject. He can't be a "natural-born" citizen.)

At 10:00 a.m., while Recon team gets ready to leave = garden/spring house area, Norris, at the observation post, radios = that a vehicle is approaching and that the Weavers are responding. = Recon team retreats through the woods toward the fern field while pursued by Kevin Harris and the Weaver dog, Striker. As the Recon team passes the fern field proceeding towards the “Y”, Sammy Weaver is seen with Harris and the dog in pursuit.
At 10:30 a.m., a gun battle occurs at the “Y”, in which = Deputy Marshal Degan and Sammy Weaver are killed. Upon hearing the = shots the OP team runs through the woods to assist the Recon team = and are fired upon when running from the fern field to the “Y.” = None of the marshals are aware that Sammy Weaver has been shot and killed.

That account is complete garbage. Harris, Weaver and the dog were strolling through the woods hunting. Deputy Marshal Degan was in a gillie suit, in the cover of deep woods, lying down in a fixed position. He fired on the dog killing it and Sammy Weaver returned fire not even knowing exactly where Degan was and absolutely no idea who he was.

Go spread your government coverup lies somewhere else.

59 posted on 05/31/2010 11:02:01 PM PDT by TigersEye (0basma's father was a British subject. He can't be a "natural-born" citizen.)

60 posted on 06/01/2010 12:07:58 AM PDT by QBFimi (When gunpowder speaks, beasts listen.)

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794