OK, I gotcha mware, thanks for reminding us in re the etymology of thud. Even though she didn't actually start it here, and it was mware who got the ball rolling (or more accurately thud dropping?), I probably always associated it with her somehow because I think she was the first I'd noticed who was using it, sorta like I associate rdb3 with 'pretty nupe" even though I know he didn't invent that. ;-)