Noah’s Ark nestled on Mount Ararat

The Peninsula - Qatar's Leading English Daily ^ | January 19th, 2008 | SATISH KANADY

[Star Traveler]

Ooops... was supposed to ping to Post #40 ... :-)

[AussieJoe]

” What we do know for sure... is that it can happen in a mere few days ... that part is known for sure.

Now, I’ll have to look up some more information on it, that I know I’ve read before, but there may be some indication of a time-frame in some natural setting (but mind you, this lab situation could have also happened in a natural setting during some cataclysmic event, too...).

I’ll see if I can find that other article.

The main thing to know right now — is that you can petrify wood in as little as a few days ... and that’s pretty significant, all by itself.”

Yes it has been demonstrated possible following a specific process in a lab. What needs to be demonstrated next is that shot timeframe petrification has actually happened anywhere in nature, what the natural conditions/processes are that cause it, and that those conditions actually existed on Mt Ararat at at the right time, in the right place.

That’s one challenge. In addition, there’s the issues of the complete lack of technology at the time to build a wooden ship of the required size with the required structural integrity, the housing and feeding of the number of animals, collecting the vast array of species from around the entire world and the lack of genetic diversity to repopulate them back into their specific geographic locations, and the requirement for an immense amount of water to cause the flood... but lets just stick to just one challenge for now.

[Star Traveler]

You were saying ...

The Bible says the Ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat.

Ooops... I just caught this one ... go back and take a look again... it does not say Mt. Ararat... :-)

What is does say is very significantly different, enough so that other searchers for Noah's Ark are looking elsewhere...

[AussieJoe]

“Now tell me how a wooden boat got up there. I’ll wait.”

What wooden boat? there is as yet no confirmation of a wooden boat, only of petrified wood (maybe), which by *natural* processes takes long geologic time periods to form, time enough to account for climate and geological changes that make the existence of trees on that mountain not only possible but probable.

You can stop waiting now.

[Star Traveler]

You were saying ...

What needs to be demonstrated next is that short timeframe petrification has actually happened anywhere in nature, what the natural conditions/processes are that cause it, and that those conditions actually existed on Mt Ararat at at the right time, in the right place.

Ummm..., I should say something "first" here, as you seem to have mistaken the reason why I posted information about wood being petrified relatively quickly. I was not bringing this up in connection with the supposed find on Mt. Ararat.

I was just answering someone else's post about wood being petrified slow or fast... that's all. There's no bearing of "petrified wood" to "Noah's Ark" as far as I'm concerned. I'm not making any connection here.

So, when you say start to get into something about "those conditions actually existed on Mt. Ararat" ... that doesn't mean anything to me. I hope you understand what I'm saying here.

NOW... what I was going to say. I think you've already seen this (as I pinged you a few minutes ago) ... but my Post #40 answers what you're talking about in a "natural setting" ... I would say ... :-)

[Star Traveler]

You were saying to another FReeper ...

What wooden boat? there is as yet no confirmation of a wooden boat, only of petrified wood (maybe), which by *natural* processes takes long geologic time periods to form, time enough to account for climate and geological changes that make the existence of trees on that mountain not only possible but probable.

You need to go back to Post #28 ... and see what Dr. Randall Price has to say about that. He puts the idea of having petrified wood as a "detriment" to any proof that Noah's Ark has been found.

I think you may be misreading some Christians in what they say about this particular find, and how it's probably a hoax and not the "real thing" while they are still looking for the "real thing". That's the case with Dr. Randall Price ... listen to his detailed interview on the subject ... :-)

[AussieJoe]

Understood, thanks.

It’ll take some time to go through that article in detail to know if the evidence does in fact support the conclusions, but on the face of it the claims for rapid petrification appear to be anecdotal or hearsay, and some of those references are definitely not authoritative.

[gitmo]

“The structure was discovered in the interiors of an unusual cave. The 11.5m wide and 2.6m high white wooden texture was revealed after removing thick layers of volcanic ash on the cave wall,” panel members said at a press conference.

How did a ship the size of an aircraft carrier end up in a cave?

[Star Traveler]

You were saying to another FReeper ...

How did a ship the size of an aircraft carrier end up in a cave?

Well, that's one of the problems that Dr. Randall Price brings up, which presents a problem in his way of thinking about it. He doesn't believe it's going to end up in a cave. The problem is, that the guide (whom he thinks is perpetrating a hoax) seems to like "caves" in terms of the artifacts that he says belongs to Noah's Ark.

From what I hear (of his interview), Dr. Randall Price... "isn't buying it" ... :-)

See Post #28 ...

[Star Traveler]

The same dubious claims seem to come up from time to time. This is an article from a Christian organization that very strongly supports the Genesis account of the Creation and the Flood, along with the reality of Noah's Ark. Note that they are not in the business of falling for hoaxes, even though they know that the Bible's account is true and accurate.

So, Christians need to be discerning and stop falling for hoaxes... :-) This article was from another "episode" of false claims, too..., back in 2002.

---

Ark discovered! … again?

Dubious claims by Christians

19 April 2002

It is with great sadness that, from time to time, we need to make our supporters aware of disreputable claims ‘doing the rounds’ in Christian circles.  Recently the dubious claims of Ron Wyatt and Jonathan Gray surfaced once again in Australia.

At great expense (and no doubt funded by the donations of sincere people), an eight-page newspaper insert recently appeared in the major newspapers in Australia — the Gold Coast Mail and the Melbourne Herald Sun.

Between them Gray and Wyatt (the latter now deceased) have claimed to have discovered Noah’s Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Ark of the Covenant, and the grain pits of Joseph.  Other sensational claims include the discovery of Christ’s actual blood cells and the Ten Commandments on stone tablets—held together by gold chains no less.

We would be excited, along with all Christians, if these claims were true.  Unfortunately, when asked to produce the artifacts, the discovers give only excuses.  Checks on some of their claims have produced a trail of falsehood after falsehood.  (See ‘Has the Ark of the Covenant been found?’)

An old article in Creation magazine (September-November 1992), ‘Could this be Noah’s Ark’, laid to rest the Wyatt rumors about discovery of Noah’s Ark.

The main claims at a glance

• Turkish Government says it’s a boat……FALSE
  
  
• There is a regular metallic pattern……FALSE
  
  
• Lab tests show petrified laminated wood……FALSE
  
  
• Turkish scientists found metal rods……FALSE
  
  
• Metal artifacts have been proved by lab……FALSE
  
  
• There are ‘ship’s ribs’ showing……FALSE
  
  
• There is lots of petrified wood……FALSE
  
  
• Radar shows man-made (boat) structure……FALSE

Why do we mention these articles on our Web site again?  Gray’s advertising insert Discovery Times has appeared in major secular newspapers in Australia and may appear in other newspapers, increasing the likelihood that Christians will be asked questions about these claims.

Being tarred with the same brush

A lack of integrity causes great damage to the Christian cause, especially when people are ‘immunized’ against the Gospel upon discovery that such claims are false.

Believers need to be wary of rumors and claims without evidence.  There are many Bible-believing scientists and archeologists who would love to help verify finds of this nature, if they were genuine.  We are commanded to ‘prove all things’ (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

[Star Traveler]

How Long Does It Take For Wood To Petrify?

by John D. Morris, Ph.D.

Folklore has it, as reinforced in classrooms and national parks, that petrified wood takes "millions and millions" of years to form. I've listened as many people have protested the Biblical doctrine of the young earth. "It takes too long to petrify wood. The earth must be old."

Imagine their surprise when they realize that wood can petrify quickly, and that no informed geologist would say it takes an excessively long time, certainly less time than it takes for wood to decay in a given environment.

Wood can be petrified by two basic processes, both of which usually involve burial in volcanic ash. This ash decomposes in the presence of water, enriching the groundwater with silica.

In the first type of petrification, the wood decays in a hot, silica-rich environment. As each molecule of wood decomposes and is carried away, it is replaced by a molecule of silica. Eventually the replacement is complete, with the mineral impurities in the silica being responsible for an array of beautiful colors in the final product. This type of petrified wood can be polished, and often becomes an object of incredible beauty. Once silicification is complete, there is no organic material remaining, but since on occasion the light and dark portions of the tree's growth rings may decay at different rates, hints of the tree rings may be preserved if the minerals present change over time. Many of the petrified trees found in the Petrified "Forest" of Arizona are of this type.

The other type of petrification involves the total infiltration of the porous wood by silica-rich water. The silica (or in a few cases calcite, or a combination of both) plugs up the pores, preventing complete decay. This allows individual cells to be remarkably well preserved, and in many cases the tree ring pattern can easily be seen. The petrified trees in Yellowstone Park are of this type, with tree rings readily visible.

As is now well known, wood can petrify rapidly. Several laboratory experiments have devised ways in which this can be done, mirroring natural settings. (See Sigleo, 1978 "Organic Geochemistry of Silicified Wood," Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, vol. 42, pp. 1397-1405, and Leo and Barghoorn, 1976, "Silicification of Wood," Botanical Museum Leaflets, vol. 25, no. 1, Harvard University, 47 pp.)

Wood can also be petrified in field settings. During one field experiment, researchers dangled a block of wood down inside an alkaline spring in Yellowstone Park to see what effect this hot, silica-rich environment would have. In just one year, substantial petrification had occurred. I recently read an advertisement in a magazine for real "hardwood floors." The company was petrifying wood commercially. The point is, it does not take long ages to petrify wood, it just takes the right conditions.

These conditions, with abundant hot waters (i.e., "fountains of the great deep"—Genesis 7:11) and rampant volcanism, would be met during the flood of Noah's day and the centuries following.

*Dr. John Morris is the President of ICR.

[Star Traveler]

Rapid Petrification of Wood: An Unexpected Confirmation of Creationist Research

by Andrew A. Snelling, Ph.D.

It is extremely unusual for creationist research to be favorably reported and referenced in a technical scientific paper by academic geologists published in a major, secular, geological journal. However, not only has this just happened, but the same paper reported experimental research that confirms the conclusions of the creationist research published in a young-earth creationist journal!

The July 2004 issue of Sedimentary Geology included a paper by five Japanese scientists reporting their experiments on the rapid petrification of wood as an indication that silicified wood (fossilized by impregnation with silica) found in ancient strata must likewise have been rapidly petrified.¹ After noting that "several researchers believe that several millions of years are necessary for the complete formation of silicified wood,"² these authors state:

Snelling (1995) reviewed previous laboratory experiments, silica deposition of wood at Yellowstone National Park and various reports of natural petrification, and concluded that wood can be rapidly petrified by silicification under the right chemical conditions.

Then the Snelling (1995) Creation magazine article³ was listed in the references. In that article it was further concluded that:

the timeframe for the formation of the petrified wood within the geological record is totally compatible with the biblical time-scale of a recent creation and a subsequent devastating global Flood.

The Tateyama Hot Spring

The experimental research conducted by these five Japanese scientists was located at the Tateyama Hot Spring in the Toyama Prefecture of central Japan (figure 1). A hot spring lake 30 meters wide occupies one of several explosion craters of the Tateyama Volcano, which currently is relatively quiet, except for the spouting of hot water. The lake's average water temperature is approximately 70°C. The spring water spouting from the lake bed is highly acidic (pH 3) and has a high silica content. This has resulted in the precipitation of opal around the lake's shoreline. Scanning electron microscope (SEM) examination of this opal reveals that it consists of an irregular arrangement of silica spheres of different sizes.

Figure 1. Map showing the location of the Tateyama Hot Spring in central Japan.

The hot spring water overflows the lake as a 30 meter high waterfall. Abundant fragments of naturally fallen wood from nearby trees have adhered to the rocky wall of the waterfall, becoming impregnated with silica and hardened (somewhat petrified). This silicification obviously has resulted from the precipitation of silica spheres onto the cell walls in split surfaces of the fallen wood. Akahane and his fellow Japanese scientists observed that the textures of these wood tissues are the same as those in naturally silicified (petrified) wood found associated with volcanic strata in the geologic record, such as the Miocene sedimentary and volcanic ash strata of the nearby Noto Peninsula. They thus concluded that these naturally silicified wood fragments in the geologic record would seem to have been petrified by the same process under the same conditions as the wood fragments in the hot spring water.

Experimental Studies

To confirm the silicification process involved and to evaluate the silicification rate, ex-periments were undertaken. Ten pieces of fresh alder wood (Alnus pendula Matsumura), indigenous to the area, were tethered with stainless steel wire and placed into the hot spring water stream on August 28, 1990. Specimens were removed after one year (August 27, 1991), after two years (July 21, 1992), after four years (August 25, 1994), after five years (September 2, 1995), and after seven years (October 3, 1997). The hot spring water at the experimental site maintained a temperature of 50-52°C and a pH of 2.95-3.0 throughout the whole experimental period.

Both these experimental wood specimens and the silicified naturally fallen wood fragments were then chemically analyzed to determine how much silicification had occurred in them. Furthermore, to confirm the nature of any silica impregnation of the inner part of the wood tissue, the distribution of the silica in the wood tissue of the specimens submerged in the hot spring water for seven years and some of the naturally fallen and silicified wood fragments, was studied by SEM mapping.

Results and Discussion

The amount of silicification in the experimental wood specimens, measured as the silica content of the ash after the organic matter had been removed by heating the wood in an electric furnace, increased from 0.7% to 38.1% as the submerged time period increased from 1 to 7 years. Silicification during the first 1-2 years was found to be negligible (0.7-2.9%), but then increased markedly after 4-5 years to 10.7%-26.8%, and finally to 38.1% in the specimens submerged for 7 years in the hot spring water (figure 2).

By contrast, four specimens of the silicified naturally fallen wood fragments had silica compositions varying from 9.7% to 39.2% of the total weight of the wood. From 14C measurements it was determined that three of these four specimens must have fallen into the lake overflow stream after 1955. Thus the silicification rate of the naturally fallen wood pieces in the hot spring water was 9.7% to 39.2% in a period of less than 36 years (between 1955 and 1991). This silicification rate would appear to be much slower than that of the experimental wood specimens, perhaps due to their likely intermittent immersion in the hot spring water, compared with the constant total immersion of the wood pieces in the experiment.

A comparison of SEM photographs of the silicified naturally fallen wood and experimentally silicified wood revealed that silicification had occurred by deposition of silica spheres (2-3 µm diameter) onto the surfaces of the wood tissue (figure 3). This is consistent with the hot spring water depositing opal, made up of these same tiny silica spheres, on the lake bed and shores. Within wood tissue are vessels and intervessel pits that are passageways along which water passes. Thus Akahane and his colleagues concluded that the hot spring water containing silica spheres passed into the wood through the vessels and intervessel pits and deposited the silica spheres onto the individual cell walls, finally occupying the inside of the wood, including the vessels, cells, and fibers. Furthermore, in the Miocene petrified wood, not only were the same silica spheres found similarly deposited onto cell and vessel walls and in fibers and cells, but aggregations of silica spheres had replicated the structure of the vessel walls.

Figure 2. Graph showing the progress in the silicification
of the wood specimens with the increasing experimental period of
their submersion in the hot spring water.

Figure 3. Silica distribution and silica spheres in the wood experimentally
si-licified by submersion in the hot spring water for 7 years. Left: SEM
back-scattered electron image. Right: X-ray scan of the same wood
cross-section showing the distribution of silicon (SiKa). V=vessel, Si=silica.
(Photomicro-graphs by Hisatada Akahane and others, 2004.)

Conclusions

Akahane and his fellow Japanese scientists concluded that silicified (petrified) wood had been formed naturally under various conditions by deposition of tiny silica spheres (opal) within it. Although there had been a different rate of silicification within each piece of wood studied, at 7 to less than 36 years the silicification of the wood had been very rapid, compared with claims of several millions of years. They also concluded that petrified wood in ancient volcanic ash beds and sedimentary strata in volcanic regions could have thus been silicified by hot flowing ground water with high silica content in "a fairly short period of time, in the order of several tens to hundreds of years" by the same mechanism.

These experimental findings validate, and vindicate, the evidence documented by Snelling (1995) in Creation magazine "that under the right chemical conditions wood can be rapidly petrified by silicification," and "thus the timeframe for the formation of petrified wood within the geological record is totally compatible with the biblical time-scale of a recent creation and a subsequent devastating global Flood." Furthermore, because the silica in the rapidly petrified wood in these experiments is in the form of opal, this also confirms creationist documentation of other experiments that demonstrate opals form rapidly within months.⁴

References

1. Akahane, H., T. Furuno, H. Miyajima, T. Yoshikawa, and S. Yamamoto, 2004, Rapid wood silicification in hot spring water: An explanation of silicification of wood during the Earth's history, Sedimentary Geology, vol. 169, pp. 219-228.
2. Siever, R., 1972, Silicon, in, K. Wedepohl, ed., Handbook of Geochemistry, New York, Springer-Verlag, vol. II/3, pp. 241-265.
3. Snelling, A.A., 1995, "Instant" petrified wood, Creation, vol. 17, no. 4, pp. 38-40.
4. Snelling, A.A., 1994, Creating opals: opals in months—not millions of years! Creation, vol. 17, no. 1, pp. 14-17.

* Andrew A. Snelling, Ph.D. geology, is an Associate Professor in the Geology Department at the ICR Graduate School.

[NavyCanDo]

There is NOTHING in that hoax article but opinion and conjecture. To claim something is a hoax you need proof it’s a hoax, not opinions of why they don’t agree with the flood time-line, or location of the Ark, or how long wood takes to become petrified.

[plain talk]

which mountain is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter. they are wasting their time because the wood rotted away thousands of years ago.

[RightOnline]

"Genesis 8:4 (NIV) - and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat."

Check again.

[Star Traveler]

You were saying ...

"Genesis 8:4 (NIV) - and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat."

Ummmm.... ooookaaaaay... :-)

You say -- Mt. Ararat

And the Bible says -- mountains of Ararat

Does anything catch your eye there? LOL ...

---

And if you had been following the "search for Noah's Ark" over the years -- in what different search teams have been doing, you would have known that key difference there, which almost everyone else gets wrong, too ... :-)

[Star Traveler]

You were saying ...

which mountain is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter. they are wasting their time because the wood rotted away thousands of years ago.

That's not something that anyone can say would and did happen, or even, is likely to have happened. There are organic plant material in museums in Egypt which are still intact and in excellent condition dating from around 5,000 years ago.

You can show examples of wood rotting in short order, and then you can show examples of wood (and other plant material) being preserved for thousands of years. So, it can go either way.

The Bible translators don't know what kind of wood that is, which is in the original language. It's pre-flood wood, and the conditions of the environment and the plants were certainly a lot different than they are now. It could very well be a species of wood that no one has seen in our time, being that it was pre-flood. The plant life was a lot more lush and grew a lot bigger in the distant past than it does now. With the atmosphere being like a hyperbaric chamber and a much higher oxygen content, it's very possible that it's a very dense, strong and rot-resistant wood.

In addition to that, the Bible talks about something being applied to the wood, and that's another unknown item in today's language. It's been translated as pitch, but we don't know exactly what it was.

BUT, there is one scenario in which the Ark wouldn't be around, that I think is somewhat plausible -- even with those details above. In the new environment, after the world-wide flood and the completely changed conditions (we can see the lowering life-span, quickly after that period of time, so it was a harsher environment) -- it's also possible that the Ark was used, over a period of time, for its wood, in order to build shelter and other necessary buildings for surviving in their new environment.

The Ark could have been gradually disassembled over a couple of hundred years and those materials used, as it was needed by the surviving people and their progeny.

[UCANSEE2]

I see a big problem with the hypothesis that discovery is of petrified wood remains of Noah’s Ark.

There are many factors involved in producing petrified wood, including burial in certain minerals, high temperatures, and high pressure.

Any wood, sitting on the surface of a mountain, buried in snow and ice, will never never never never ever petrify.

The only way that one could find petrified wood remains of Noah’s Ark on the side of a mountain, buried in snow and ice, would be if the Ark were built out of petrified wood to begin with.

[UCANSEE2]

A second issue is that the remains were found in a cave, and covered by volcanic ash. Ash is ideal for helping the petrification process, but how did the wood get buried in volcanic ash, inside a cave?

Did Mt. Ararat have a volcanic explosion in the last 2000-6000 years?

[Star Traveler]

You were saying ...

I see a big problem with the hypothesis that discovery is of petrified wood remains of Noah’s Ark.

I think that Dr. Randall Price sees a problem with that, too, according to what I've heard (see his interview in Post #28)

And Dr. Randall Price is also looking for Noah's Ark, on Mt. Ararat, so he's not saying that (about the petrified wood) from the standpoint of denying that the ark exists. He believes it's there, but he doesn't think that "this group" has found it...