Abortion, Again: Do Babies Feel Pain?

RW News ^ | April 20, 2010 | Melissa Clouthier

[NYer]

Nebraska heats this topic up again. Embarrassed about being the late-term abortion capital of the United States, Nebraska changed the law:

Can an unborn child feel pain?

That question will dominate the abortion debate in America for the next several years thanks to Gov. Dave Heineman of Nebraska. Last week, Heineman signed the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act into law, banning abortions in Nebraska at and after 20 weeks based on growing scientific evidence that an unborn child at that age can feel pain.

The legislation was enacted as a defensive measure. After the murder of late-term abortionist George Tiller, a physician named LeRoy Carhart declared his intention to carry on Tiller's work at his Bellevue, Neb., clinic. State legislators did not want Nebraska to become the country's late-term abortion capital -- so they voted 44-5 to stop him.

The new law will probably spark a Supreme Court showdown, because it directly challenges one of the key tenets of Roe v. Wade -- that "viability" (the point at which an unborn child can survive outside the womb, generally held to be at 22 to 24 weeks) is the threshold at which states can ban abortion. In defending the law, Nebraska will ask the high court to take into account scientific research since Roe and push the legal threshold back further.

I have written about this before, from a very personal place. My sons were born at 24 weeks, could feel pain, and felt pain more than the doctors and nurses wanted to admit. Not long after my son left the NICU, the hospital changed a policy on heel sticks (given repeatedly and daily without anesthesia) because they were so painful to the child.

This was a "duh" decision to me: I saw my sons silently scream and writhe to get away (they were intubated) every day during the procedure. Of course they felt pain. Only a moron couldn't see that self-evident fact.

Do babies feel pain en utero? Yes. For years, doctors have noted that babies avoid ultrasound. No one quite knows why, but it's suspected that the ultrasound waves are at the very least, uncomfortable to them. So, ultrasounds, while performed routinely, are carefully meted out by the best professionals, because they do know that ultrasounds stunt growth and interfere in other ways. If the baby avoids it, there must be a reason.

My thought is that unborn babies are more, not less, sensitive to pain. It just makes sense. Their nervous systems are raw and unrefined. They live in a fluid-filled cushion bubble for heaven's sake. I figure it's because the insulation deadens the sensations--the sound, touch, sight, etc.--needfully. The experiences would be too intense otherwise.

The fact is, it makes sense that these tiny humans feel acutely. And anyone who has seen a tiny baby, with a beating heart, cannot fathom that they don't feel pain. It is an exercise in denial to haughtily imagine that they are little lumps of protoplasm feeling, learning, expressing nothing.

It is inconvenient to imagine a baby as a mini-human. If the baby is a mini-human, the baby has civil rights and should be protected.

As the science gets more refined, I expect that people are going to be horrified at what has happened to unborn children. Or, they'll sink deeper into their denial--no one wants to perceive himself as a murderer, little less a pain-inflicting murderer.

[avoth]

“The anti-abortion crowd only needs to keep repeating that abortion is the killing of a child that otherwise would be, and that any mother who proceeds with an abortion, that is not directly threatening her own life, will at some point in time be regretful of her decision if she has any conscious at all.”

I respectfully disagree. I think more can and should be done.

“How can a mother forget her baby?”

We read stories of how mothers murder their babies AFTER they’ve been born, e.g., shaken-baby syndrome. As a society, I think we’ve reached the point where abortion is viewed as morally equivalent to lancing a boil.

“She either asks forgiveness and eventually heals post-abortion, or she goes into denial regarding the aftermath of her child’s bloodbath, becomes harsh, embittered and lifeless herself. While the lost child of abortion is cared for by God, the pain of abortion for its mother lasts her lifetime. In addition to the senseless loss of an innocent baby’s life, that’s why abortion must cease and desist. Abortion hurts women. (And it hurts men too!)”

I hope we can respectfully disagree on this. Not that I don’t wish you were right; but I have a different view.

[avoth]

Are you some kind of last-word freek?

You’ve not achieved one of the things you’ve stated except in your own mind.

[Christian_Capitalist]

I have no issue with anything you’ve written. If I read you correctly, your issue with my post is that you found the term “morally reprehensible” to be a poor choice of words to describe the behavior of the pro-choice crowd. And I don’t have a problem with that either.

No, my impression was that you were using the term "morally reprehensible" to describe Abortion -- and my point was simply that "morally reprehensible" doesn't cut it. Abortion is Murder. That's what makes it different from other "social issues".

I might find prostitution to be morally reprehensible -- yet still oppose legal prohibition of privately-owned brothels on Private Property grounds, or at least support the authority of the individual States (i.e., Nevada) to prohibit or legalize the practice as their own Legislatures decide.

But, while I do believe that the Laws should be written at the State level, I don't think that we Conservatives (and Pro-Life Libertarians) can ever waver in our support for the Criminal Prohibition of Abortion, because abortion ends a human life and the Law must recognize such life-taking as a civil evil, not just a personal moral vice.

[avoth]

“No, my impression was that you were using the term “morally reprehensible” to describe Abortion — and my point was simply that “morally reprehensible” doesn’t cut it. Abortion is Murder. That’s what makes it different from other “social issues”.”

OK.

“But, while I do believe that the Laws should be written at the State level, I don’t think that we Conservatives (and Pro-Life Libertarians) can ever waver in our support for the Criminal Prohibition of Abortion, because abortion ends a human life and the Law must recognize such life-taking as a civil evil, not just a personal moral vice.”

OK. I can respect your position.

[Theophilus]

Is there some other way to deal with behavior that we find morally reprehensible because your current methods not only aren’t working, they’re backfiring and giving our enemies ammunition to use against us?

The anti-abortion crowd needs better solutions and more self-control because it’s not achieving the results it truly wants, i.e., people to act more responsibly regarding sex and conception.

Child sacrifice is on a par with profaning God's holy name.

Leviticus 18:21
And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

Psalm 106:37-39
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.

Our enemy is God and he needs no ammunition. I don't want people to "act more responsibly regarding sex and conception." This is not about self-righteous rectitude or punishing promiscuity with babies. This is about the blood curdling wrath of God against our entire nation. Look what he did to us over slavery in the civil war. Our land is polluted with the blood of 50,000,000. We are all in the same boat. I am afraid of Almighty God.

Deuteronomy 32:35
To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

[Christian_Capitalist]

Thanks.

I recognize that many States would not, at this point in our history, see fit to criminalize Abortion; but I believe that the States should (on grounds that the States have always had Tenth Amendment authority over common law matters like homicide) at least be permitted to criminalize Abortion in the 30-or-so Pro-Life "Red States", where the majority of our citizenry and citizen-Legislatures would like to legally prohibit the practice as being a form of contract-homicide and therefore a civil harm.

[mlizzy]

I think more can and should be done.

What do you think should be done?

[avoth]

Thank you for the respectful dialog. Hard to come by in this neighborhood where certain types have perfect vision with regards to the faults they see in others.

I have some friends who, while they do not regard themselves as liberals, are pretty solid Democrats. They won’t even listen to me speak positively about Sarah Palin (without them saying they hate/are scared of her/etc.) because of their perception of her views on abortion. I can’t get them to budge an inch and it’s truly a shame because I think if they only got her side of the story, they wouldn’t have such overwhelmingly negative views. I know they would actually agree on certain issues. But the abortion issue blinds them to all else.

Ah well. The war goes on. Have a good night.

[Christian_Capitalist]

I don't want people to "act more responsibly regarding sex and conception." This is not about self-righteous rectitude or punishing promiscuity with babies. This is about the blood curdling wrath of God against our entire nation.

Sobering post. Thank you for once again putting it all in perspective.

[avoth]

Thank you for the respectful dialog.

I believe the goal we should be working towards is one where the overwhelming majority of our society has no reason to get an abortion because they have more respect for themselves and others. How do we do that? Not by legislation but by respectfully reclaiming our values.

So what can we do? First, tone down the rhetoric. While they don’t believe it, a number of posters here attacked me personally. They didn’t open my mind to a single one of their positions and, truth be told, I don’t think they wanted to. They simply wanted to make their point and disprove what I was saying. In their minds, they succeeded and I should be humiliated and should shut up and go away. And I think that attitude is evident in some of the arguments made to pregnant women who are seeking abortions.

I think we will reach the minds of pregnant mothers who are contemplating abortion better by first listening to them and actually hearing what is prompting them to take that step. We can try, with respect, patience and consideration, to address their concerns. Hopefully, we will succeed with some but must be prepared to fail with others. In either case, we must treat the other with respect.

[avoth]

Second, we have to do a better job of taking on the media, entertainment, and the education systems. All are controlled heavily by liberals with their “abortion under any circumstances” attitude. In the media, they will use every opportunity to portray the pro-life group as religious fanatics who use violence to achieve their ends. It wouldn’t surprise me if some pro-choice types perpetrated violence in the name of pro-life just to make pro-life look bad, and the media selectively reported it or covered it up. So at demonstrations, violence must be condemned repeatedly and respect for others must be more pronounced.

In the entertainment industry, we have to monitor closely to see that our position isn’t maligned. Check out how Law and Order SVU portrays pro-life types. One dimensional and bad. The advertisers should be contacted and told that a boycott will be pursued unless a more realistic approach is taken.

Last, in education, we have to become more and more involved at every level. Sex education simply cannot be left to the liberals. Get elected to the school board, volunteer, and most important, make sure your child talks to you about what is being taught. Then, organize and take action respectfully.

Does any of this sound reasonable to you?

[cpforlife.org]

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[mlizzy]

I agree with most everything you have said. The problem, of course, is "connecting" with a woman who is pregnant to help her. That's not as easy as it sounds. What are your ideas on that?

Where a pro-lifer "works," is on the front lines usually, where every syllable you utter is of importance, as you've got about 20 seconds, sometimes less, to yell out your lifeline as the mother proceeds walking to PP's door.

On Good Friday, I participated in a prayerful protest, and I held an "I regret my abortion" sign from Silent No More. You've probably seen them. On that day, a young woman and her mother drove out of PP, and they stopped for free ultrasound literature. The young woman was not more than two or three feet away from me and tears were rolling down her cheek.

My husband was with me, and said, "you helped save a baby." While it's possible the sign had some effect, I think it was more the 200 or so people outside who were praying like monks that convinced this woman she should think over her decision.

My stint outside of PP the following week brought no such wonder. A beautiful woman and her boyfriend/brother/friend left PP, and she was limping in obvious pain. I asked my husband if he could come up with a sign that can be quickly read, and would appeal to youngsters (many of these girls are in their teens) as I am not young, and I don't think most seeking an abortion really care if I regretted a decision (when the dinosaurs walked) or not.

He came up with "SEX THRILLS BUT ABORTION KILLS ..." and in smaller type DON'T DO IT! (he suggested the exclamation point be an aborted child).

There's no room for violence in the pro-life movement (you are correct!), but it gets mighty discouraging sometimes, and that's when even more prayer or trust in Our Lord is necessary.

[avoth]

“I agree with most everything you have said. The problem, of course, is “connecting” with a woman who is pregnant to help her. That’s not as easy as it sounds. What are your ideas on that?”

You’re right. It’s very difficult to build bridges during a war. As an individual, obviously you can reach out to the people you know. As a group, I don’t have any good ideas.

“Where a pro-lifer “works,” is on the front lines usually, where every syllable you utter is of importance, as you’ve got about 20 seconds, sometimes less, to yell out your lifeline as the mother proceeds walking to PP’s door. “

True. By the time the mother is walking to PP’s door it’s usually too late. We should come up with creative ways to reach out BEFORE they take that step. And I think more effort should be placed on making sure no woman/girl has an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

“On Good Friday, I participated in a prayerful protest, and I held an “I regret my abortion” sign from Silent No More. You’ve probably seen them. On that day, a young woman and her mother drove out of PP, and they stopped for free ultrasound literature. The young woman was not more than two or three feet away from me and tears were rolling down her cheek.”

That must have been a wonderful feeling.

“My husband was with me, and said, “you helped save a baby.” While it’s possible the sign had some effect, I think it was more the 200 or so people outside who were praying like monks that convinced this woman she should think over her decision.”

I contribute to the Just One Life movement. It’s not much, but it’s something.

“He came up with “SEX THRILLS BUT ABORTION KILLS ...” and in smaller type DON’T DO IT! (he suggested the exclamation point be an aborted child).”

Well, it is creative.

“There’s no room for violence in the pro-life movement (you are correct!), but it gets mighty discouraging sometimes, and that’s when even more prayer or trust in Our Lord is necessary. “

Amen.

Thanks for the respectful discussion.

[Theophilus]

I urge everyone who considers himself prolife and has the barest means (physical, finacial, certainly spousal) to do so to become not merely prolife but procreatively prolific.

Genesis 9
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

I hope you and Mrs Christian_Capitalist are fervently getting to business on this matter.

[Theophilus]

What do you think should be done?

Have as many children as you can. Love them, raise them in love and the church and encourage them to find wonderful spouses to continue the process with joy and thankfulness for life.

L'Chaim! - To Life

[wagglebee]

As a society, I think we’ve reached the point where abortion is viewed as morally equivalent to lancing a boil.

That is because people like YOU have stood by and shrugged as babies are slaughtered.

EVERY DAY more black Americans die in abortuaries than have died in all racially-motivated crimes since the end of the Civil War AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU VIEW THIS AS THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF LANCING A BOIL.

EVERY DAY more Americans die in abortuaries than than died in the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU VIEW THIS AS THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF LANCING A BOIL.

EVERY YEAR more Americans die in abortuaries than have died in all of the wars that America has fought in combined AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU VIEW THIS AS THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF LANCING A BOIL.

EVERY TWO MONTHS more human beings die in abortuaries than died at the hands of the Nazis in the Holocaust AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU VIEW THIS AS THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF LANCING A BOIL.

EVERY EIGHTEEN MONTHS more human beings die in abortuaries than died in all of World War II AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU VIEW THIS AS THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF LANCING A BOIL.

EVERY TWO YEARS more human beings die in abortuaries than died as the result of the genocide of Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU VIEW THIS AS THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF LANCING A BOIL.

IN THE PAST CENTURY more human beings die in abortuaries than died in ALL of the wars, famines, plagues and crimes in the history of the world combined AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU VIEW THIS AS THE MORAL EQUIVALENT OF LANCING A BOIL.

I hope we can respectfully disagree on this.

In the history of the world "respectfully disagreeing" with people like you has resulted in nothing but bloodshed.

I looked through your posting history because I couldn't figure out how you had been here for four and a half years and I didn't recognize your name, then I realized that, except for a handful of posts, ALL of your posts have been within the past month. You are a troll.

[P-Marlowe]

Second, we have to do a better job of taking on the media, entertainment, and the education systems....

We?

Avoth, you are obviously a liberal troll.

You started out this thread arguing that you see nothing wrong with abortion as long as it wasn't you that was aborted and then you denigrate all the long time pro-life posters who are committed to the pro-life cause and ignore all the pictures of the aborted fetuses which show the humanity of the fetus at even the most undeveloped stages and then you have the gall to come here and use the term "WE" and give the pro-lifers advice?

WE are NOT you!

Be gone Troll!

[ArrogantBustard]

OK, so no abortions ever happened before it became legal?

Your ability to add 2+2 and arrive at a sum of 1,000 is astonishing.

[trisham]

And who gets to decide what the moral absolutes are?

**********************

God. Who else?