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Obama eyes interns: Democrats move to deny useful job training to young workers
Washington Times ^ | April 7, 2010 | Editorial

Posted on 04/06/2010 8:11:56 PM PDT by JohnRLott

The Obama administration's top law enforcement officer at the Labor Department, M. Patricia Smith, is targeting companies that give young people unpaid internships. She claims that internships are rife with abusive practices and that serious violations of labor law are widespread. Arguing that interns should get paid at least minimum wage, Ms. Smith and the White House risk destroying a valuable steppingstone that gives many young Americans training they need to get jobs they want in the future.

Unpaid internships are valuable for many reasons. Most simply, they help people test whether they are a good fit for a particular industry. If interns like the type of work at particular companies, internships can help them get the training and contacts they need to make their career aspirations a reality. The short time that interns spend at jobs - often just two to three months - makes it difficult for firms to both train these young people and get much work out of them. From manufacturing to nonprofits to media companies such as The Washington Times, hands-on opportunities open through internships are almost endless. . . .

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government
KEYWORDS: april; interns; regulation; washingtontimes
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To: PapaBear3625
In real life, if a person doing a job results in products that make money for the company, then companies will compete with each other to get good people to place in the position. My daughter in college has done internships. They all paid her decent money/

Which is what I'm arguing for. Others here are arguing that interns shouldn't get paid for their work. I've never argued that they should get equal pay to regular employees. Just that they should be pay the market value of their work.

And dang near 2/3rd of the posters here thought that was a Communist or Leftist idea! Which tells me there are a lot of people here at the Free Republic that really aren't all the free-market oriented... or conservative, for that matter.

161 posted on 04/11/2010 8:07:17 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla

You seem to misunderstand many of our positions, and I believe willfully so.

You claim to be the “silent voice of the free market”, but you refuse to allow the real silent voice to be heard - the hundreds, thousands, and even millions of transactions that take place on a daily basis. The agreement to take an unpaid internship is merely one of those transactions. It is a transaction based on the perceived value earned by each individual in the agreement - the employer and the employee.

But you, instead, would substitute your own will and opinion for that of the actual participants. THAT is what makes your opinion collectivist.

At the companies I have worked at, both as a “co-op” engineer in college and as a professional, pay their interns. That is more the rule than the exception in engineering (I will assert this, but will also admit it is opinion - I have no statistical data to back it up). There are apparently some professions where unpaid interns are the norm.

But you would disallow free choice to enter into such a situation by fiat - because of your Randian need to measure all worth in only dollars and sense. Your equation of voluntary work arrangements for no pay with slavery are ludicrous - the slave has no choice, and the volunteer does not hand over the deed to him or herself when they agree to the unpaid internship.

The primary coin of the unpaid intern’s remuneration is knowledge. Apparently, you do not value this - not nearly as much as those who are willing to work for it without monetary reimbursement besides.

It appears to have the same worth in your eyes as free choice - none.

When I see so-called “free market” arguments against free choice, I see statism at work. The issue in your mind, apparently, is that you cannot see any situation where a person’s labor is worth no more than the experience and knowledge gained by performing that labor. Instead, the government should set an arbitrary compensation level.

That doesn’t sound all that Randian to me.


162 posted on 04/12/2010 5:38:33 AM PDT by MortMan (It's unconstitutional, it's wrong, and it's evil. But that's Obama in a nutshell.)
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To: gogogodzilla
Which is what I'm arguing for. Others here are arguing that interns shouldn't get paid for their work. I've never argued that they should get equal pay to regular employees. Just that they should be pay the market value of their work.

What if the true market value of the work they perform during their internship is zero or negative?

When you consider the cost to the company of providing supervision and training, for some jobs the value of the employee in the first month or two, while they try to get up to speed, is often zero. I know that when I deal with new young hires, they are generally of negative worth for the first few months. That gets fixed once they finally figure out which end is up, and they start being productive.

The internship process is a way to discover which potential new hires is likely to be productive, in a way that avoids the potentially costly and emotional dismissal process for those that don't work out.

163 posted on 04/12/2010 6:53:03 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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To: MortMan
But you, instead, would substitute your own will and opinion for that of the actual participants. THAT is what makes your opinion collectivist.

And that's where you are making an assumption. I want the free market to pay a monetary value to their work... and then pay them that value. Why you insist on thinking that means I want *MY* opinion as to their work value be their salary, I'll never know.

But then you go onto say:

But you would disallow free choice to enter into such a situation by fiat - because of your Randian need to measure all worth in only dollars and sense.

Which means you can view my 'Randian' ideas... as collectivist (as show in your first quote). That backs up my assertion that many 'conservatives' here have no clue what a free market is... nor do they care.

164 posted on 04/12/2010 3:30:22 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: PapaBear3625
What if the true market value of the work they perform during their internship is zero or negative?

Then businesses will not hire them. Business isn't charity... they exist to make profit. If a prospective employee doesn't help that, then the business doesn't hire them.

When you consider the cost to the company of providing supervision and training, for some jobs the value of the employee in the first month or two, while they try to get up to speed, is often zero. I know that when I deal with new young hires, they are generally of negative worth for the first few months. That gets fixed once they finally figure out which end is up, and they start being productive.

This sounds like the argument between the way the Navy promotes personnel and how the AF/Army promotes personnel. The Navy will immediately authorize the member to wear their new rank, give them the responsibilities, but not pay them until the date their fiscal system can afford it.

Whereas the AF/Army will not allow the person to 'sew-on' their rank... or officially give them the responsibilities of it... until their fiscal systems can pay them.

I favor the system that only grants you the rank when you see the pay. And it sounds like you'd favor the opposite.

The internship process is a way to discover which potential new hires is likely to be productive, in a way that avoids the potentially costly and emotional dismissal process for those that don't work out.

True enough, nowadays... unfortunately that was supposed to be the interview process. That, and from my experience, it's usually the first couple of months working for a new company where they have the option to terminate your employment should you not work out. Regardless, they do pay you for the work.

165 posted on 04/12/2010 3:42:40 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla

Let me rephrase my observation into a direct question, because you obviously cannot grasp the difference between money and recompense.

Do you believe barter -trading one thing of value for another thing of value - is immoral and should be illegal?


166 posted on 04/12/2010 6:29:52 PM PDT by MortMan (It's unconstitutional, it's wrong, and it's evil. But that's Obama in a nutshell.)
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To: MortMan

Here’s a nice YouTube explanation of the free market by the highly regarded conservative, Walter E. Williams. (Excerpts from the speech “The Entrepreneur As American Hero”)

It actually answers the question you raised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUL152yGVGI


But... let’s ask some questions to that question...

Do you believe that money is not the acceptable medium of exchange for goods and services? Do you believe it to be inadequate? Why did our ancestors invent it in the first place?


167 posted on 04/12/2010 7:40:43 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla

That’s what I figured - you can’t answer the question.

Money is the predominant mdeium for the exchange of goods and services. It was invented to standardize values.

But money, despite your fervent wishes, is not the sole medium for the exchange of goods and services.

In current times, money is little more than government declaration of value - there is nothing specifically guaranteeing the value of a dollar.

So, let’s try one more time to see if you have any degree of intellectual honesty.

Do you believe barter is immoral and should be illegal? A yes or no answer will work just fine.


168 posted on 04/13/2010 4:40:37 AM PDT by MortMan (It's unconstitutional, it's wrong, and it's evil. But that's Obama in a nutshell.)
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To: MortMan

The video answered your question. Did you watch it?


169 posted on 04/13/2010 4:43:28 AM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla

YouTube is blocked from my current location.

Besides, that is Walter William’s answer.

What is YOUR answer?


170 posted on 04/13/2010 4:58:47 AM PDT by MortMan (It's unconstitutional, it's wrong, and it's evil. But that's Obama in a nutshell.)
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To: Grams A

To be sure, if the government is ‘worried’ about these poor, abused, interns — you know the REAL reason has to do with lost taxes & fees to the government.


171 posted on 04/13/2010 5:22:36 AM PDT by carmody
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To: gogogodzilla

You also might wish to consider that Ayn Rand promulgated the gold standard in her writing - no government fiat money, just plain old gold.


172 posted on 04/13/2010 5:38:38 AM PDT by MortMan (It's unconstitutional, it's wrong, and it's evil. But that's Obama in a nutshell.)
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To: MortMan

What’s wrong with a gold standard? At least our money holds it’s value... regardless of whatever fashionable political trend holds sway.


173 posted on 04/13/2010 2:46:19 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: MortMan

Here’s the link to his text version of the speach.

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/fee/Jan00.pdf

And another on the value of greed.

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/fee/Oct00.pdf


You would argue that knowledge is an acceptable alternative to money. I argue that society does not value anything unless there is a price attached. Labor or knowledge, both are valueless unless there is money earned from it.

By arguing that we shouldn’t pay interns for their work, you are, in essence, denying them entrance into the free market. For money is the medium of exchange in it. No money = no entrance into the market.


174 posted on 04/13/2010 4:49:31 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla

And yet you can’t live without fiat-money valued internships...

Care to answer my question about barter for yourself? Or are we done?

“Debating” an opponent who evades even simple questions is pointless.


175 posted on 04/13/2010 4:49:59 PM PDT by MortMan (It's unconstitutional, it's wrong, and it's evil. But that's Obama in a nutshell.)
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To: gogogodzilla

Sorry, but that is not correct.

Money is a standard measure of value.

It is not the ONLY measure of value.

The free market is a free-willed exchange of value.

You clearly are unwilling to answer my simple question about barter. You are being intellectually dishonest by not doing so - because barter is the very basis for unpaid internships, much as it is the basis for the exchange of standardized value tokens (money) for a specific good or service.

We’re done - I’ll not spend any more time on such a dishonest debate.


176 posted on 04/13/2010 4:56:01 PM PDT by MortMan (It's unconstitutional, it's wrong, and it's evil. But that's Obama in a nutshell.)
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To: MortMan
Money is a standard measure of value.

It is not the ONLY measure of value.

Riiiiight. Try buying your groceries with a wallet full of 'knowledge'. Tell me how that works out for you. I'll be waiting. (or buying them with live crickets, or monkey pelts)

As for barter. It worked only before the invention of currency. After that, it's necessity disappeared... and so did barter. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, just as irrelevant as whether I'd like to send my mail via homing pigeon.

177 posted on 04/13/2010 5:20:35 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla
Here are more thoughts on the unpaid intern issue:

What Unpaid Internships Say About Your Company

178 posted on 04/19/2010 11:56:58 AM PDT by AZLiberty (Yes, Mr. Lennon, I do want a revolution.)
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To: AZLiberty

Good article, thanks for posting it.


179 posted on 04/19/2010 2:04:47 PM PDT by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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