Posted on 04/05/2010 3:13:26 PM PDT by wagglebee
You really don’t have a leg to stand on if you can’t label someone a murderer, do you?
Maybe you need to read the Bible a bit more. The answers are there.
What was the punishment for causing miscarriage? (and miscarriages ARE abortions...not all abortions are man-induced.)
I’m still waiting for you to provide any quote from me that shows enthusiasm or support for abortions.
If Pro Life means support for life how is it that even those who don’t support abortion are people you call pro abortion?
Oh....maybe because it is easier to smear people than talk to them.
Exactly!
There are approximately 4000-5000 pregnancies from rape each year (incest pregnancy figures are a little harder to pinpoint, but in cases of incest the abuser often stops his abuse when the girl reaches puberty) and not all of them chose to abort. There are over 1.3 MILLION abortions in America each year and the abortionists use the tragic circumstances of a few thousand to justify all the others.
Day 21, Week 3: The heart begins to beat.
Day 28, Week 4: The backbone and muscles are forming. Arms, legs, eyes and ears have begun to show. Hair has begun to sprout.
Day 30: The embryo is 10,000 times larger than the original fertilized egg. The heart is pumping increasing quantities of blood through the circulatory system.
Hmmm. The heart is beating at day 21. If it's beating, it's pumping blood. The fetus is already formed with bodily parts that require blood to function. By day 30, the heart is pumping increasing quantities of blood.
The crux of his misinformation: Leviticus directly says that the life of the flesh is in the blood. There is no blood at conception, so how can life begin at conception? At least Biblically speaking?. Well, if I take this literally (though it has nothing to do with our topic at hand), I'd say life of the flesh is already developed as early as day 21 if not before. Oh, well, another idiotic argument destroyed. Man, how people set themselves up...
#253.
I have only seen anger and vitriol like this when dealing with Liberals who has been confronted with an idea that disturbs their orthodoxy.
Provide them with information that doesn’t jibe with their world view and they attack the messenger instead of the message.
Yeah, yeah, I’m a this or that...sticks and stones.
But your problem runs deeper....if you can’t shock people with words like murderer and baby killer, how do you coerce people into doing things your way?
Coercion....so religious yet so unChristian.
11 Because the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, and the blood may be for an expiation of the soul. 12 Therefore I have said to the children of Israel: No soul of you, nor of the strangers that sojourn among you, shall eat blood. 13 Any man whosoever of the children of Israel, and of the strangers that sojourn among you, if by hunting or fowling, he take a wild beast or a bird, which is lawful to eat, let him pour out its blood, and cover it with earth. 14 For the life of all flesh is in the blood: therefore I said to the children of Israel: You shall not eat the blood of any flesh at all, because the life of the flesh is in the blood, and whosoever eateth it, shall be cut off. 15 The soul that eateth that which died of itself, or has been caught by a beast, whether he be one of your own country or a stranger, shall wash his clothes and himself with water, and shall be defiled until the evening: and in this manner he shall be made clean.
Throughout this entire passage it clearly says that the life of the FLESH is in the blood; however, simply having flesh and blood DOES NOT make something a human. That is why this passage also speaks of the SOUL and the soul is a necessary component of our humanity.
Now let's look at Jeremiah 1:5:
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.
Here it's very clear that God knew us BEFORE conception and this would indicate that our souls are certainly present at conception and the soul is where our humanity comes from, THIS is the Breath of Life that God breathed into Adam's face.
No, flesh and blood belong to any number of animals. But, the life of the flesh being in the blood, then a fetus at 21 days or beyond (or maybe even sooner) has life according to the link I provided above. It just hasn't been born as yet. This is the key point, IMO.
I understand exactly what you are saying. I’m simply stating that the humanity PRECEEDS the blood.
There are many that will try to find any loophole that allows them to kill babies, and this seems like another one.
And you're exactly right. I've been addressing the argument about life not existing without blood. There have been two convergent threads to this...
Nevertheless, Eagle Eye's argument is valid. The definition of life in Leviticus is in relation to the blood flowing through the veins and it is the blood which is said to carry the life. Therefore from a strictly biblical standpoint, I believe a legitimate argument can be made that abortion is not a "murder" in the biblical sense unless it stops a beating heart.
Now while some of us may believe that it is murder to abort before the heart begins to beat, that does not necessarily mean that we have a biblical basis for our position.
So let's knock off the invective diatribes against Eagle Eye on this point. He has a valid point. Now can anyone point to a biblical verse which provides evidence that life from a biblical standpoint begins before the heart begins to beat? If so, use that to refute Eagle Eye. If not, then let's stop with the personal invectives.
Marlowe
What about Jeremiah 1:5? Leviticus 17 is talking about life of the flesh ONLY, not human life.
Using Jeremiah 1:5 you could make the argument that contraception is murder.
BTW the definition of murder is the killing of the flesh, not the killing of the spirit. Man cannot kill the spirit, only God has that power.
The question then becomes at what point does the flesh have "life".
I believe that there is a valid argument that the flesh is not "life" from a biblical standpoint until the heart begins to beat. I will concede that argument on a biblical basis. The fact is that 99.999999% of all abortions occur after the heart begins to beat, as most women are wholly unaware they are pregnant until about 30 days into their pregnancy.
So as you put it, if blood carries life, then the heart pumping blood at day 30, or even 21 being fully developed, means there is life. It just hasn't been 'born' as yet. Therefore, this 'strictly biblical argument' you define is backed up by medical fact.
I believe a legitimate argument can be made that abortion is not a "murder" in the biblical sense unless it stops a beating heart.
Ah, but as shown above, it does.
Now can anyone point to a biblical verse which provides evidence that life from a biblical standpoint begins before the heart begins to beat?
As previously argued above: Jeremiah 1:5 that says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
God knows us before we were even formed. He has consecrated us before our birth. Please tell me how an abortion doesn't fly in the face of God's design?
Oh, and there's also been the argument about still born fetuses. That is God's design, not man's. It's His will we should be honoring, not the will of the parent to make life simpler for oneself, or because the fetus is a burden.
Again, how is it proper to destroy the child for the sins of the father? God does, yes. But we're not God.
So let's knock off the invective diatribes against Eagle Eye on this point.
And what of Eagle Eye's invective diatribes against us? Calling me a liar? No comments on that? If I recall correctly, he was the one who began with the invectives.
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec22/ch257/ch257c.html
Development of the Embryo
The next stage in development is the embryo, which develops under the lining of the uterus on one side. This stage is characterized by the formation of most internal organs and external body structures. Organ formation begins about 3 weeks after fertilization, when the embryo elongates, first suggesting a human shape. Shortly thereafter, the area that will become the brain and spinal cord (neural tube) begins to develop. The heart and major blood vessels begin to develop by about day 16 or 17. The heart begins to pump fluid through blood vessels by day 20, and the first red blood cells appear the next day. Blood vessels continue to develop in the embryo and placenta.
************************************************************
So, the first blood shows up on day 21. Three weeks from conception. That means that IF you are going to permit abortion based on that criteria (that is the appearance of blood), you have to know EXACTLY when the woman conceived.
Since that is not possible, you need to factor in a safety margin of several days, a week at the most to be safe.
That means that a woman could only go for an abortion and not have it be considered murder if she does it BEFORE she even has any reason to suspect or know that she’s pregnant.
There is also the complicating factor that since the time of conception, the fertilized egg has been growing and cells have been differentiating, a sign that something is alive.
Another big failure on the part of the pro-abortion crowd to justify abortion, to be sure.
Are you as adamant about contraception as you are against abortion? If Jeremiah 1:5 is your sole basis for arguing against abortion in the first 21 days, then would you not argue that contraception is Murder as well?
And what of Eagle Eye's invective diatribes against us?
You could try turning the other cheek.
No, I disagree. Contraception is the prevention of conception for pleasure. Jeremiah speaks to God knowing us before we were conceived. If there is no act of conception, intentional or otherwise, then the all-knowing God is aware of man's intention. And conception has not occurred. A convoluted statement, I agree, but I think you get my gist...
Less than a century ago this is what all Christians believed.
The same argument could apply in cases of abortion. If there is no act of "birth" then God could not say he knew you before you were born, because you were never born.
All?
Do you hold to that position?
See a post I just made.
You could try turning the other cheek.
Yes, we all could. But you were adamant about pointing out our invectives and ignoring Eagle Eye's. In fact, you still are...
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