Posted on 12/31/2009 1:17:20 PM PST by Perdogg
I'm getting tired of "Underwear Bomber". PantyBomber or EunuchBomber are much better.
Well, how about "the crotch bomber"?
Ever since Islam was invented by Mohammed, it has spread via the sword and forced conversions. The only reason there are millions and millions of Muslims today (other than the recent artifact of prison coversions and Saudi financed conversion factories in the US and some western countries) is:
1. Forced conversions
2. The descendents of forced converts cannot change religions.
Islam is more or less a prison. You cannot leave.
That’s it in a nutshell. If you read history (real history) you will see that the entire history of Islam is one of butchery, rape, torture, genocide, thuggery, theft and forced conversions.
That is all it is. They destroy other cultures, civilizations, populations, houses of worship, and the like.
It is butchery, plain and simple.
He wasn’t he took a drug. They say he was perfectly calm.
He wasn’t he took a drug. They say he was perfectly calm.
So what real history do you recommend? I’ve studied a good deal of history, but none of it ever described Islam in that way.
For the last few decades, most history taught and written has been heavily changed and altered by lefists.
I really don’t know what sources to tell you. But if you delve deeply into the history of Islam and how it spread rapidly througout the Middle East, into Persia and Afghanistan, then through India and into Indonesia, Malayasia and so on, as well as North Africa - you will see how they did it.
The sword.
That’s it. And then forced the populations to give up their existing religions. They slaughtered millions in several hundreds of years, enslaved countless numbers, raped, pillaged, etc. It’s a bloodly history of evil. They didn’t try to hide what they were doing and I have no idea why the history you learned didn’t teach it.
For instance, the history of India and Islam is horribly vicious, but due to political correctness which is currently crippling India, kids in schools now learn nothing of it. Nothing. It’s a disgusting criminal shame, probably the same thing here.
It’s a dirty secret that the world needs to know.
Muslims have a history of destroying other houses of worship - remember the Taliban and the giant, ancient statues of Buddha they bombed? Or turning them into mosques.
They make the Nazis look like amatuers. Oddly enough, they really teamed up with Nazis - soulmates, in a sense.
Well, that’s really not what we call a “reference”, as in giving documented sources to support your interpretations. While your opinions may be validated by factual sources, I’m unable to accept your assertions without some backup materials.
Are you saying here that you can’t give me any reference materials because they are all written by “leftists”? While their interpretations of historical facts may be from the Left, do you state that some historical references are factually incorrect?
I really am looking for historical reference works that will give me more factual knowledge about the development and spread of Islam. While the spread of Islam under the first four caliphates in the Middle East was military in origin, there was almost no revolt against them because they were actually better administrators than the former rules.
And in some countries, such as Indonesia (which has 200 million Muslims,86% of the population), the religion was adopted without any military violence - no “sword” at all. The spread of Islam in many parts of the world - large parts of the African continent, for instance - was through non-violent conversion. So the historical record is more complex than simply stating “the sword’ for its spread.
So I am asking in all sincerity for you to provide me with such factually-based reference books, so that I can read them. You are very firm in your opinions, and want to get a handle on where yo are coming from.
I don’t have history books at hand. Only source is my knowledge, after reading and studying since 1970.
The victors have written the works you have read, apparently.
For example - if the Muslim takeover of Indonesia was so mellow, why did Hindu brahmins escape to Bali? Why are the Muslims still destroying ancient Hindu temples in Indonesia?
It’s well known that much history written in the last few decades is written by leftist revisionists.
I cannot do your research for you, and it is apparent you’ve swallowed the “Islam is peaceful” crap anyway.
It's no where near as difficult as you're making it out to be... Let me give you some examples outside of "religion":
Abuse of the elderly is wrong... for the sake of argument we'll say "evil". Here's a situation: A nursing home has a statement of purpose that speaks of honoring the elderly - and provided excellent care. (think: orthodoxy).
Now the nursing home in the example is owned by a corporation - and the corporation gives a bonus to the director if costs are held down. The bonus - when large - is almost half the directors annual salary. An aid calls in sick - and a choice has to be made - to "double up" on the existing aids ( allow them to cover twice as many patients as they should) - or to call for an expensive "pool replacement"? How will the rewards and incentives play out? Giving nursing aids twice as many patients increases the possibility of abuse - but doesn't assure it (variable random). But bringing a pool nurses aid very often assures the director of not getting the bonus.
What's going to happen? What are the incentives? There are directors who are saints and often short staffing doesn't cause predictable abuse. But there are directors who aren't saints... You don't have to know every nursing home - or every director to see that the reinforcement patterns are "toxic". Directors are reinforced for making the "wrong" choice.
Does a person need to know millions of directors of nursing homes to see a toxic pattern? Nope. A few will do to see the patterns. It's how we can poll 800 people and know how the country feels about an issue...
It's the same with collective farming. Collective farming often brings starvation... it's in the incentives. It's not written into the "pillars" or "tenets" it's written into how reinforcements motivate people.
You also won't find anything in the Communist Manifesto about death camps, starvation and extreme repression... but they do have a way of showing up in communist countries. Again - incentives - reinforcements - natural toxic systems.
And that's how I'm coming to my conclusions - watching the real as opposed to reading the "purpose statement" or the "manifesto" or the "tenets of faith"...
Here's the problem, worst-case - if a person who is Muslim writes a book critical of the religion, a fatwa is put on that person. They might take some of that crap from non-muslims (not as much as they used to ) but they sure don't take it from their own. The Dutch man who did the cartoon portraying Mohammad with his head as a bomb - had a Muslim try to kill him last month... they caught the guy - but one of these days someone will get through. And when was that cartoon published? A few years ago - and they are still so angry they want to kill the man. And they will kill him.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/144240/rebel_without_a_veil_dutch_infidel.html?cat=47
As a 22-year-old Somali Muslim, Ayaan Hirsi Ali fled to the Netherlands to escape an arranged marriage in Canada. The daughter of a dissident politician, she grew up in Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia and Kenya. As a child, her grandmother forced her to undergo the traditional practice of female circumcision. This event in her life is described in detail in her autobiography "Infidel".
She won a seat in the Dutch parliament upon 10 years of living in the Netherlands and became known as a womens advocate and critic of Islam. She collaborated on the short film "Submission", which criticized the treatment of women in traditional Islam and cost Dutch film director Theo van Gogh his life. Van Gogh was found shot dead in Amsterdam by a Dutch Muslim, who staked a letter into Van Gogh's chest with a knife threatening Ayaan Hirsi Ali's life. She was forced her to go into hiding. In addition to her just released autobiography "Infidel", she's written several books that have earned her fatwahs (legal rulings against her by Muslim clerics). Last year she was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. An apostate from Islam who has openly renounced her faith, Hirsi Ali has voiced her concerned that the release of her book "Infidel" could cost her her life because, as she explains, the Koran calls for the death of those who leave the faith.
Hirsi Ali has told reporters that 9/11 led her to become what she called a "Muslim atheist". She explained, "I got into a conflict of conscience. Do I agree with what is done in the name of the Koran, because that is what bin Laden and Mohammed Atta quoted? Do I agree with my God, or do I disagree? And if I disagree, I know I'm earning Hell."
As you can see, writing negatives things about the Muslim religion can be a death warrant for the writer. So I doubt anyone will be able to give you the books or links you want...
Hirsi Ali will probably die for having written "Infidel" so you might want to start there. It's a book you can read...
A person who disagrees with your sweeping historical generalizations and asks for some documentation is not necxeessarily a person who has swallowed “’Islam is peaceful’ crap.” It’s a person who is skeptical of sweeping and undocumented claims.
Well, thanks anyway for the discussion. It ends here, with your belittling and uninformative response. A teacher you are not.
Yes.
If a person wants to find the truth, they will. They will keep searching, they will investigate motives, they will read all sides until it is proved beyond a doubt what the truth is. Motives and duplicities must be ferreted out.
Islam has been practicing butchery since day one. That’s the simple truth.
I’m not a history teacher. Just trying to be helpful. If you want to be in a bad mood and refuse to do your own homework and find out the truth, that’s your problem, not mine.
I never expected to be handed all the truth about history of Islam to be handed to me on a platter. Just look, search, find out motives, read obscure books, and you’ll find easily.
An open mind and a sincere desire to know the truth will take you far. That’s what’s needed, not bitching at me because I can’t send you links and book titles.
Sheesh.
Did you even read GOPJ’s comments above?
And btw - I have two Korans and have read much of them, too bored to read the entire things though. Read plenty of Hadithas, their books and history need to be understood. You apparently know nothing of the history of India. You should educate yourself.
That case was exactly what I thought of when I read your post earlier today.
I was looking for a few books and found this one listed:
Serge Trifkovic- “The Sword of the Prophet: A Politically-Incorrect Guide to Islam” Are you familiar with it at all?
Any good?
I was also struck in my research today by the connections between the Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler. It reminded me a bit of the tolerance, and even support, of Pius XII and tha Nazis. (And now Benedict is making a move that would lead to Pius XII’s canonization.)
Thanks for the discussion.
I have chosen instead to engage Muslim friends in conversations over the past 20 years. I've learned some funny and unusual things about the culture. Things I've never seen in books. And some understanding of where "the dark side" comes from...
Reading about this religion from the point of view of people who are allowed to write about it is like reading about it from the point of view of people who hate all Muslims - - you'll get information and biases, not understanding.
In the Muslim culture there are very stylized ways people share - and most of it is done through family. A husband will speak to his brother - father - wife and trusted adult sons. The wife will speak to her sister who will speak to HER husband who will speak to his father who will ... etc etc. All important information flows through trusted family members. Secrecy is important in the culture - as people who speak "out of turn" can cause loved ones to die.
I have Muslim friends. My problem isn't with individual Muslims but with the religion itself.
Same with Scientology - as I've also known individual Scientologists - and liked them - but have very strong reservations about the "church"...
I'm sorry I can't help you.
No problem.
I’ve talked to my Muslim friends as well - perhaps they just haven’t been as open with me as yours have with you.
I appreciate the respectful dialogue though.]
Have a good New Year.
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