Posted on 12/28/2009 3:51:18 AM PST by marktwain
The sight of a man openly carrying a firearm in a Nashville-area park has scared some people, resulting in a law enforcement response. From the Associated Press:
A man carrying an AK-47-style semiautomatic pistol was detained at Radnor Lake State Park on Sunday after startled hikers complained to park rangers.
Some would consider that a scary-looking gun. Some would consider coloring the muzzle tip orange so it looks like an Airsoft gun scary. And some would consider gun owner Leonard Embody's choice of apparel, "a camouflage jacket, military boots and a black skull cap" scary.
That's how hiker Ellen Thomas described her encounter with Embody. And even Minneapolis Gun Rights Examiner and Open Carry.org co-founder John Pierce, who is quoted in this story, concedes appearances can be problematic.
(Excerpt) Read more at examiner.com ...
“the whole point is the whole ‘scaring’ part is a problem of the wimmen and chilrun not knowing the ‘law’...he did nothin to scare them...”
So your position is that we need a law for everything? He certainly did do something to scare them. He was openly carrying a firearm in a manner that is very unusual. This was a glock in a holster after all. Further he doctored the firearm so that it would resemble a toy.
“but so is painting the ends of toys orange”
The issue here isn’t the law regarding toy guns. That is currently the norm for toys.
Or are you suggesting he did this because he thinks toys shouldn’t have orange tips on them?
Again, are you suggesting we should have a law for everything a person might do?
At the end of the day people went home thinking how crazy gun owners are and not that gun owners are responsible. In the end that hurts all gunowners.
That would actually be work. I’m commenting on the article posted. Do you have reason to doubt that the Park Ranger came because people in the park reported the gunman?
Yes, they are a younger bunch. In addition to that I have a problem with the whole law enforcement philosophy seemingly changing. It starts with the training of new recruits. It seems all predicated on protecting themselves and their colleagues rather than serving the public. Much of it is exercises concerning fire or don’t fire with realistic simulations. That seems innocent enough in itself but when you see traffic stops with a passive perp laying on the ground and six cops around him with guns drawn and pointed directly at the passive perp you wonder why the shrill attitude and why they consider the perp a threat. It is a wonder more innocent people don
t get killed by guns being accidentally discharged..
That breeds an attitude of “me above you”.
That is the main point so no need to bring up exceptions to dispute what I say. I am talking specifically about an attitude of us above the public which is being instilled through training.
sorry but i cant agree that this is the problem...for me the greater problem is that this guy, although a possible tool/loose screw, was no real threat to them, yet they were instinctively compelled to call upon their saviours for protection...
that mindset, fomented by commie indoctrination from decades passed, has instilled a fear that is basically holding these people captive to their own minds and imaginations...
me and my family in that park have choices, but runnin for the nearest ranger is waaaaaaaaaaay down the list...
for those people who think its the first response, may they please bubble wrap themselves and stay inside behind locked doors where the world is marginally safer in reality, but MUCH safer in their own minds...
beyond that, Im sure the 'anarchist' label will shortly be thrown about, but the reality is that we have lost all manner of freedom with the encyclopedias of laws to wade thru as citizens...
it was never meant to be this way, original intent was that every layman 'knew' the law...
used to be 'ignorance of the law was no excuse', because the laws were few and simple and common sense...ie 'do unto others...'
its been bastardized into 'knowledge of the law' is disturbed and aggressive behaviour...
no wonder we have a muslim commie in the whitehut...
give it a couple more generations...once the current classes get to be the mentors, those new youngins will be very scary indeed...
“yet they were instinctively compelled to call upon their saviours for protection...”
And thats why the left continues to make progress. You continue to ignore reality and insult these people when it is their cultural norm. Everything they have been taught is that this kind of behavior is abnormal and dangerous. He did everything he could to reinforce that except shoot someone.
reality is that the man didnt do anything illegal, or threatening towards these poor cultural retards...
im no social worker, and I dont think that a calm lecture about the current laws in their neighborhood will penetrate their vulnerable simple minds, unless its to make them realize that they need to outlaw simple open carry, or outlaw evil 'assault weapons'...or outlaw wearing camo outside of woods...or outlaw camo inside woods... or outlaw orange paint...or outlaw gun possession in parks...or outlaw gun possession in general...
to talk down to me about offending their assbackwards sensitivities in the name of s-l-o-w change is the insult...
what about the possibility of a bunch of those peolpe present actually learning that the 'pistol' he was carrying was completely legal and obtainable, as well as the Right to carry ???
Id rather that a few people realize they have Rights, and become active in the exercise thereof...
in the realm of black guns, this is basically what happened to me, I merely needed to meet someone who owned em and they said I could have it if I wanted it...the lightbulb came on and i educated myself...
novel concept, but it works overnight, rather than playin pattycake and being pc in an attempt not to shock their system...
I dont think we have decades to reverse the damage at this point...
my .02
“...predicated on protecting themselves and their colleagues rather than serving the public.”
YES!!! Exactly so. Columbine was a prime example of this. I used to bitch at the training staff about their incessant chant about how going home at the end of the day was the ultimate goal. Perhaps I had an effect as they began training all officers in “active shooter” responses. More likely the embarrassment of Columbine spurred them. When I was a sergeant I taught my men that they were paid to take calculated risks. They seemed eager to grasp that concept and apply it.
OK, so that's one, named and publicly reported.
She called the encounter "scary". Why? Because he was openly carrying a gun? I've seen people I thought were "scary" even though they did not appear to be armed. BFD.
Here's Embody's take on events from the ARFCOM thread:
I went to the Tennessee State Radnor Lake State Park this afternoon to take in some nature and get some exercise. I dressed in boots, blue jeans, t-shirt, vest, and an old military issue gore-tex woodland camo jacket. I carried my new Romanian Draco AK pistol loaded with 31 123 grain FMJ ammunition from Walmart. I arrived at approximately 3:30 pm and with the pistol slung on my back I started my walk. It was mostly uneventful. I saw no deer and passed maybe 30 hikers. As I reached the end of the trail I made sure no one was close by and shifted the ak-47 pistol to the front of my body. I reached the end of the trail and turned onto the roadway where I saw the first ranger of the day. He asked me if it was an airsoft and I said no it was an AK-47 type pistol. He looked at me strangely and asked to see my permit. I showed my Tennessee handgun carry permit. He asked where I parked and I told him. He said I could keep walking I kept walking as he called someone. By the time I reached my car the ranger was no where in sight as I walk quickly. However, another ranger vehicle pulled in the parking lot and a ranger jumped out with a shotgun pointed at me and yelled at me to stay still and put the weapon on the ground. After I put the weapon down he told me to move away which I did. He then told me to put my face on the ground and my arms on my head. I complied. I think he had a gun trained on me the whole time, but I couldn’t see. He searched me quickly and put my AK into the truck. This particular ranger has seen me before and has asked to see my TN handgun carry permit. He asked to see the permit again and asked for my driver license. I told him I would not give him my license, but he could see the permit.
Three Nashville metro cop cars showed up pretty quickly. They talked among themselves for about an hour and then a cop pulled out a citation for arrest. It said I was being arrested for 39-17-1311 unlawful possession of a weapon. He asked me to sign and I told him I wanted to speak with his supervisor. He said okay, but that it would take a long time and he just wanted to cite and release me for my convenience (yeah right). I asked what part of 39-17-1311 I violated he said I couldn’t carry a rifle. I told him my firearm was classified as a pistol. It has no stock and never had a stock. I also pointed out that it has an 11.5” barrel with complies with the length of a handgun definition in Tennessee. He said it looks like I had cut the stock off and another said they had never heard of a 7.62x39 handgun. It took about another ½ hour for the sergeant to show up. In the meantime one of the original cops left, another park ranger came and left and two more cops showed up. The sergeant showed and I tried to explain that the firearm was a handgun. I also told him if they were going to arrest me to just take me in front of the magistrate right away. They spent another ½ hour asking me if I had a form 1, that the ATF classifies my pistol as a rifle, and they had never seen an AK pistol before. Finally they told me they had gotten in touch with the manufacturer and the manufacturer said it indeed was a pistol. I highly doubt that, but that is what they told me. They released the handcuffs, and gave me back my magazine, ammo, and pistol.
I think they handled it as well as could be expected. I felt the cop who was trying to charge me with a violation of 39-17-1311 had no basis for the charge.
Does he sound like a dangerous criminal? Does it sound like he knew exactly what his Rights are and what the Law is?
I don't give a flying fig what some Sheeple have been conditioned to believe. People who go that far to know the law and what their Rights are do not commit crimes and are no danger.
Is Embody a poster child for RKBA. Probably not. Does he deserve a smack upside the head to set him straight on his carry choice? Probably.
BUT HE DID NOTHING WRONG. Period. End of story. Everyone just needs to get over it.
He is retarded. He must have been to flagrantly induce being arrested.
From another poster on the TN gun board:
A lot of you guys were screaming for park carry or for a "clean" carry law for restaurants with no restrictions, but the first time someone carries in an unorthodox manner, breaking no laws, you join forces with the anti's, screaming something has to be done. I have to admit, I'm amused by the irony.
Sometimes we are our own worst enemies, and I'm not just talking about Leonard. The media reports are loudly claiming that even the pro-gun websites are condemning his actions. They quote the guy from opencarry.com distancing them from him. The last thing we need is liberals thinking that surely we need more restrictions if even the pro-gun crowd agrees with us.
Let's stop shooting ourselves in the foot. Either we are for real RKBA, including stuff like this, or we aren't.
Which is it?
He doesn’t mention the tip of the gun being painted orange. That was what I have criticized him for. If he has a good explanation as to why he made his gun look like a toy (I wonder if that’s why the ranger thought it was an airsoft?).
Another freeper said that people found him scary, you asked for proof, I gave you proof. I did not agree that he was scary, just that people he encountered WERE scared, which is what you were arguing with the other freeper.
It makes no difference whether you or I find him scary. It makes no difference if he can WRITE in a way that makes him sound reasonable, the question was whether people who saw him that day found him scary.
I have no idea why the woman found him scary, or why several people who saw him contacted the rangers (as reported in the story).
It was interesting that the police didn’t think there was an AK pistol (I note that some freepers also didn’t believe that was true). It seemed clear from his write-up that he knew the pistol was unique, and he doesn’t seem to blame them for making sure he hadn’t sawed-off a gun (which I would guess is illegal).
If I were him, I might well carry some identifying papers showing the gun is a pistol, so that in the future he doesn’t have to go through this process again. And I would stop painting my guns to look like toys.
And if he actually did dress up like this specifically to get a reaction, he should consider whether he is really being helpful to whatever cause he feels strongly about.
I did. The OP didn't appear to be reading any of the links provided. I just wanted him to do his own damn leg work to back up his excoriation of Embody.
It makes no difference whether you or I find him scary. It makes no difference if he can WRITE in a way that makes him sound reasonable, the question was whether people who saw him that day found him scary.
Being "scary" isn't an offense. I'm kinda scary looking if you squint a bit. BFD.
Liberal bedwetters don't want people armed. The guy could have been wearing a 3-piece Armani suit and had a platinum plated Kimber in a Natuzzi leather hostler. It wouldn't have mattered. "Man with gun=BAD" in their minds. Plenty of people in the park that day and the AP reporter could only find one? Further, if there was a real complaint made, the Rangers could have held either him or his firearm pending investigation. There wasn't. Just moron Po-bucker and his idiot choice of a carry arm. Fashion faux pas maybe. A crime? Not even close.
And if he actually did dress up like this specifically to get a reaction, he should consider whether he is really being helpful to whatever cause he feels strongly about.
What better way to point out the idiocy of some of the arbitrary and capricious laws like "toy gun orange", "assault weapon" misnomer, and the general cluelessness of LEO and general public alike?
Not the way most people would have done it, but then again... This incident does create a "teachable moment" if we choose to use it as such. If we just pile on Embody as the douche nozzle he redoubtably is, then we do the Anti-s work for them.
God bless you. Many who choose law enforcement as a career do it for that purpose. Others do it just to get a job and some few do it for the authority and power they crave. Those are the ones who need the training you provided. Too bad some of the power-seekers eventually become the commanders and trainers.
They seemed eager to grasp that concept and apply it.
I suspect that all but a few will embrace the idea.
“”Man with gun=BAD” in their minds...”
That’s why everyone ought to carry. Then if he was “bad” they could deal with it.
I wonder if the folks in that park would have been equally alarmed had Embody been carrying a pistol variant of this:
People do all kinds of things with their firearms.
Not my bag of tea, but whatever trips your trigger. It is your RIGHT. We either support that Right, or we will most assuredly LOSE that Right.
Yes. Even for the Embody's of the world.
“It is your RIGHT.”
Yup, exactly so. Before a huge percentage of americans became pussies you pretty much did what you wanted as long as you didn’t infringe on others. If you infringed too much they hung your a$$.
Works for me.
Things have pretty much been downhill since then.
No victim? No crime. When we started letting the Law itself stand as accuser/victim, we lost that whole "justice" thing we were once so proud of.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas Jefferson
thanks DC for this quote, and to you both for realizing that our Rights must be defended every time, not just when its convenient...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.