Theology
Posted on 11/03/2009 9:57:44 AM PST by AreaMan
10.30.2009
Can people be good without God? How can people be good, in the moral and ethical sense, without being grounded in some sort of belief in a being which is greater than they are? Where do concepts such as good and evil, right and wrong, come from if not from religion?
Children often repeat ideas gained elsewhere as if they were their own profound insights. I remember in school “inventing” what I thought was a stunning new idea for propulsion only to be told that jet engines were, in fact, fairly common. Of course, a good idea is not less good because kids don’t recognize the source, though you can forget the patent!
In the same way, moral secularists depend on God for their morality, but don’t recognize it. Walking with God over the centuries, theists have learned a thing or two about ethics from divine revelation, the image of God within each human being, and reason. While not able to found much of anything, many Western secularists have appropriated much of this heritage and use it within their own ethical lives. This is infinitely preferable to attempts by secularists such as Mao and Stalin to reinvent ethics in the twentieth century, and thus religious humanists (such as Christians) welcome secular humanists to the fold.
Some of the most ethical people I know are atheists and agnostics. One can certainly be moral without believing in God, but this is because men can surely breath without being aware of the existence of oxygen. God is the cause of moral goodness, but nobody has to recognize the cause in order to get the benefit.
Goodness is an idea that exists in the mind of God. It is built into the very fabric of His creation. When I look up on a starlit night, I see harmony and order. When I look at nature, I see a universe that reflects His glory. The light pollution of Los Angeles cannot obscure every star, and so even the poorest citizen of this crazy coast can still look beyond his petty problems and errors.
Concepts such as good and evil are built into the human soul. While each culture misses something and develops ethical blind spots that ultimately destroy it, one can look at humanity as a whole and get a good picture of what is right and wrong. Our own time has developed weird and wicked obsessions, but history is a good corrective to them. The image of God can been seen in looking at large numbers of men, even if it is obscured just in looking at me, because of where I fall short.
Finally, God is not silent. He speaks to each generation and each culture wooing them to the Divine. All the great world religions contain a seed of that call, though Christianity contains that message in its fullness. God so loved His world that He came Himself in the Jesus not just to show us the way to live, but to provide a means to do it.
This dependence on God, directly and indirectly, is obvious by looking at the creation of human cultures. In terms of global culture, theists create and secularists appropriate what theists create. There is no evidence that great world cultures can be created or sustained over the long haul without religion.
Education taught me right and wrong, good and evil. Much of that education came from nonbelievers who lived out the truths of what I believe better than I did. Plato was wrong about one thing: just knowing something is good does not give a man the moral power to do it.
Knowing what is good and doing it are two different things. Many thoughtful people from Plato to Confucius have had keen ethical vision. Some like Socrates have been willing to die for the truth, but what of the rest of us? What of the ways in which we all fall short of what we know in our hearts is right?
We don’t just need a standard, but mercy. It is mercy and a clean soul that secularism cannot by nature provide and Christianity can. Those of us who have done things we regret, who have placed scars on our souls, are given hope in Christianity that we can be “born again” . . . start over. This hope is priceless and makes me love God.
If you love God, you want to become more like Him. You slowly turn from your own petty loves and begin to love what He loves. This change is gradual, but it is real. Often it forces me to confront things about myself that I would prefer not to see, but love pushes me to change. It is no wonder that Christianity has spread throughout the globe, because it offers goodness with mercy and hope.
Humans can try to “reinvent” morality, though cultural revolutions have usually not worked out well for culture. We can try to pretend that we have not fallen short, even of our standards, but we know the truth. We can even declare our vices to be virtues, but remain vexed by our private sense of guilt and shame. Jesus offers us the truth with mercy, and it is that combination humanity so badly needs.
Every person is evil and immoral atheist or no because all have a sin nature.
Only God is good.
Krishnamurti
I suppose if people think of Christianity as a "noble lie" that is useful for keeping the great unwashed masses in line and well behaved while the grown ups go about the "real" business of life.
If you seriously, rigorously question the meaning of the word, I submit that it has no meaning without God's commandments.
Without a fixed, immovable standard, what is "good" and what is "bad" becomes a subjective thing. In other words, it's entirely dependent on the standards of the individual asking the question, which may be anything at all. Hence, the word "good" wouldn't really mean anything specific.
To a junkie, "good" might mean "gives me a long-lasting high".
To an alcoholic, "good" might mean "goes down smooth with no aftertaste".
To a rapist, "good" might mean "doesn't scream".
So you are saying that being good is what? A learned behavior? Genetic?
Also why are these people less likely to run amok if the don't believe in God?
Paul explains that the laws of God are written on the hearts of man, so no man has an excuse for not knowing what is good.
So in a way the answer is “Yes, a person who does not believe in God can do good.”
But as a believer, there is an understanding that the fact that a person can do good is due to the fact that God has imbued each person with an understanding of his laws.
So the answer, from a believer’s perspective, is “No, good comes from God, whether or not a person is aware of his work in them.”
I think you misunderstand the meaning of Natural Law; which is an 18th century term for God's laws; which are superior to any man-made codes. Some of that Law is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence: “Life, Liberty, (property) pursuit of happiness”. It was our Founders’ assumption when they framed the constitution that our people would ALWAYS conform to natural law.
Atheists eschew the concept of natural law and consider man's laws to be the ultimate standard.
Just ask Conan the Barbarian....
So what is good and evil without a God? It is anything you think it is at the time, isn’t it? So your answer is no.
That silliness that keeps people behaving well, so sure why not put up with it.
There are many anti-Christian news items these days that it almost not even “news”.
It would be news if there was support for Christians by non religious people.
Is there good without God?
No, since God Himself defines good for us.
You or I could give the world our definition of good but since we have no more authority in the matter than anyone else, anyone else can just dismiss us.
For example, cowardice is universally wrong; especially when it involves failing to help another human being in danger.
Where do these core values of right and wrong come from? Certainly NOT from any "natural selection", as many of them are contrary to self-preservation!
I recommend CS Lewis's commentary on the matter in his book "Mere Christianity", as he discusses some universal truths that led him to reject his atheism and become a Christian.
Just out of curiosity, how do you know that what God says is good, or for that matter that God is good?
If you think God is good, by what standard of values are you making that judgement.
If you say God’s standard, by that method anyone or anything can claim to be good. “By my standards I am good,” says God, or anyone else.
An objective standard of good must exist before any agent can make claim to being good. Arbitrary pronouncements of good and evil are just that, arbitraty, not absolute. If your standard of good and evil are, “whatever God says is good and evil,” you do not believe in absolute values, but values based on the arbitrary whims of your God. You can have no confidence that what He says is good today, will still be good tomorrow. Since He sets the standards, He can make them anything He chooses, right?
Hank
Perhaps incidentally, but the moment they substitute their own judgement in the matter of good and bad for God's and or act upon it they become ‘evil doer's’ by literal definition. (Your “out to get everyone” stipulation has nothing to do with anything).
This one is too easy...first off as Christians we never classify ourselves as "Good" it's anthemia to the message of the gospels. We all sin, we are all sinners, we in the face of the perfect man Jesus Christ are depraved and wicked. We accept that and try each day to be "Christ-like". We read God's word, pray, and through fellowship with other saved people understand crystal clear what constitutes good and evil. We sharpen our skills at discernment. Your question and your conundrum proves my point, being caught in a moral relativists wasteland where you are left obsessing at the meaning of words. It's easy if you are open to the message of the Gospel, if you continue in rebellion and rely on your own mental prowess to create a concrete worldview on sand you will fail. God just is, like gravity whether you choose to believe it doesn’t matter, it just is. Too much evidence to support Jesus, God and veracity of the Bible to think otherwise…predicated that you earnestly search and not harden your heart and close your mind.
The inescapable conclusion of your words is that the entire non-Christian world is comprised of evil-doers (by literal definition, as they have substituted their own judgement for the Christian God's judgement of good/evil). Every single last one of them.
If your conclusion, which is so obviously wrong on its face, is so far off the mark, it leads one to question your premise. Which I do.
Believe in God or don't. Accept Him or dismiss Him as you wish. But to pervert “logic” by lumping, in the matter of Authority, the Author of all things and even time itself with the guy down the block is ridiculous. God SAYS that he is final, unmovable, the Alpha and Omega. That certainty, that unmovable stability, IS THE VERY THING THAT HE HOLDS OUT TO US, who are pitched about in the tempest that is His Creation.
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