Posted on 10/20/2009 2:17:20 PM PDT by rabscuttle385
see 20
...which is tantamount to a redistribution of wealth, i.e., full-on Socialism.
But then they would do things differently and we could figure out what "the" "best" methods are for achieving various goals through an efficient market approach. Not to mention the moral aspects of letting people decide what they want.
No, we're much better off having 536 lawyers in DC decide the one approach that's best for everyone.
“Is public education necessary?”
No.
Yes, but this isn't 1830, where virtually everyone was raised in a two-person, agricultural society, and where the mother bore the responsibility of educating her children. The fact of the matter is that in-school education also keeps a LOT of kids out of situations where they'd probably be destroying their lives, and quite possibly the lives of others. That is not going to change ANYTIME soon, no matter how much someone wishes it would.
""Sunset" the federal student loan program for college students."
Three years ago, China began to graduate more engineers than the US graduates total under-grad students. If we are going to continue to be the technology leader, we have to increase the number of students in getting degrees - especially engineering degrees - not decrease them.
The student loan program makes college available to MANY students that couldn't otherwise afford to go to a quality school. It may have some inflationary impact on tuition, but the lion's share of tuition inflation is a direct result of powerful teaching & administrative unions, just like those union increase the per-pupil costs in primary & secondary eduction.
Unions aren't going away, short of impeaching virtually every federal court judge and half of the Supreme Court, and replacing them with libertarians or conservatives. And, while the DOE could possibly be weakened or down-sized, it's not totally going away either.
The only realistic alternative continues to be school vouchers.
Only if you adhere to Marxist/Fabian ideology...
A more important question would be: "Is Public Education Execution Necessary?"
Answer: "Only if we are to have any hope of restoring the Constitutional Republic."
I couldn't disagree more! Instead of government spending tax dollars, they are sent back to the people. A tax rebate.
Granted, taxpayers without school children are still having their taxes taken, but the competitive pressures would reform education, IMHO.
Public schools wouldn’t be so bad, but like everything else, they’re increasingly being controlled from Washington.
NCLB changed everything, and for the worse. Challenged schools, like those in inner cities, struggle so much to meet the NCLB accountability benchmarks that it’s all they concentrate on. There’s very little real learning going on there - it’s all about the test.
The kids are turned off. In my inner-city school district 40% of the high school students are chronically absent (miss 15 or more out of 180 days of school). That’s 1 day in 12. That’s enough to get anybody fired from their job quickly, yet 40% of the kids do this. So how are they supposed to learn when they don’t come to school? Of course parents do nothing about it, and neither do the schools. What are they supposed to do, fail ‘em and have their failure and sickly graduation rates drop even further?
But who can blame the kids? The teaching is about nothing but the tests. And the rare creative teacher has no chance. The curriculum is set by central admin. Exactly what will be taught on each and every day is predefined for every teacher. Frequent standardized testing is then used to measure progress. Teachers complain that there’s so much testing there’s no time to teach.
I attended public schools and received a good education. My kids, now in their 30’s, went to public schools and received a fair education. If/when I have grandkids I will lobby my kids not to send them to public schools. I’ll do everything I can to see that they attend private schools or are home schooled. I’ll pay for it myself if I have to do so.
I truly pity the poor folk in our inner cities who have no choice but to send their kids to these institutions of failure. They have no chance.
So basically it's subsidized daycare. Great.
If we are going to continue to be the technology leader, we have to increase the number of students in getting degrees - especially engineering degrees - not decrease them.
I agree with you that the United States, on the whole, ought to graduate more individuals with "useful" degrees, but the present system treats a degree in ethnic studies more or less the same as a degree in electrical engineering.
Furthermore, the focus ought not to be on quantity but quality. Ten engineers who can't do more than regurgitate information are worth far less than one engineer who can actually apply that information to build a system.
The student loan program makes college available to MANY students that couldn't otherwise afford to go to a quality school. It may have some inflationary impact on tuition, but the lion's share of tuition inflation is a direct result of powerful teaching & administrative unions, just like those union increase the per-pupil costs in primary & secondary eduction.
AFAIK, Virginia doesn't have any unions in public education, and tuition and fees at my college have still increased by 8 to 10 percent annually over the past two decades.
“Sadly, now that the hour is VERY LATE, most of those who laughed at is then have stopped laughing.”
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It appears now that the ONLY people who knew what was actually going on fifty years ago were those who were regarded as the lunatic fringe. I suspect I was considered to be one forty years or more ago, I remember saying back then that this was not TRULY a free country and was losing more freedom every year. Very few wanted to consider such things at the time, they were too busy going gaga over the Beatles.
So you take dollars from everyone, and then redistribute only to one set of people based on certain qualifications (school-aged chldren)?
If one family wants to help another family with education, that's fine by me, but your argument is specious and smells of Socialism, plus it can be used to justify all sorts of nasty things, e.g., EITC.
Why is teaching the test a bad thing? Doesn’t the test check for things like basic math proficiency?
I was homeschooled, took standardized tests throughout. My mother never “taught the test” at all, but I always aced it because I had been educated. I just don’t get how “teaching the test” means uneducated, and educated means flunking the test.
Yep.
I’m proud to say that was also one of the lunatics and have the letters-to-the-editor, recordings of my radio shows and the rest to prove it.
Look at this whole thread. Far too many “conservatives” have simply given up on getting rid of Big Government and are content to just “reform” it by embedding it deeper and deeper into American life.
The sad thing is they are probably correct that getting rid of big gubmint is a lost cause.
First, I'd be all for limiting or restricting government-backed student loans, and even grants to students who are endeavoring to get more societally valuable degrees like those found in medicine, engineering and other physical sciences.
It's surprising to hear about Virginia. Although I've actually lived there - twice - while our kids were in school, they went to parochial schools and not public schools so I didn't pay attention. I now live in a state - Ohio - where virtually every public school job, teaching and administrative and at every level - primary, secondary and post-secondary - are all unionized. And, Ohio has more than a fair share of public universities - I believe 13 or more, all unionized.
I used to be a believer in public schools. But my own experiences and hearing what goes on in other schools elsewhere changed that.
For me, it's just a simple business decision. It's far cheaper to educate them for 12 years than it is to incarcerate them for 50. Elementary math.
No Sam, it’s not.
I learned little more in my public school career than always watching my back and how to fight dirty when dealing with older, bigger bullies.
Any other questions?
Your mother had the flexibility to teach what and how she wanted, when she wanted. And my guess is that you weren't missing school 1 out of every 12 days. Public school teachers don't have this flexibility.
What they teach, every day, is prescribed from district central admin. The test comes on Friday. The test may show that the kids didn't learn squat that week. Too bad, next week is already planned and they'll be teaching something else come Monday.
The curriculum is set by district central admin, following standards of learning defined by the state, the SOLs meeting guidelines prescribed by the Feds.
It's all completely regimented now. There are no days where the science teacher can take a break from the curriculum and spark interest with a splashy experiment.
The English teacher who is passionate about a particular book doesn't get a chance to assign that book. What books are read are prescribed by someone else.
Learning happens best when the student is eager and excited to learn, when he is truly interested in the subject matter. Teachers who know their craft can spark this - they can lead the kid to the source and keep him excited and motivated. Teaching and learning works best when the teacher too is excited about the same subject matter.
That kind of teaching is all but dead in today's regimented institutions. NCLB is a big part of the reason why.
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