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To: kingpins10
When science tells me a rock that is known to be 200 years old from a volcanic eruption is 4.5 million years old according to radiometric dating, I have a problem with that.

I'd have a problem with that too if that's what "science" actually said, but since it's not what science says, there's no problem. Competent radiometric dating of recent lava flows yield recent results, as expected. The dating methods work.

No one can seem to explain this fact.

I can explain it just fine. The "creation scientists" who gathered the samples and ran the tests lied, in order to have a dishonest excuse to try to discredit radiometric dating methods.

The dating methods, when used correctly, yield accurate and reliable results. When purposely used *incorrectly*, as was done by creationist Austin during the "RATE" project, unsurprisingly yield incorrect results.

Here's a post I wrote about this on another thread:

In layman’s terms, these volcanic rocks that we know were formed in 1986—less than 20 years ago—were “scientifically” dated to between 290,000 and 3.4 million years old!

No, in layman's terms Austin the creationist is either a fool or a charlatan (perhaps both).

"In layman's terms", here's what he did wrong (I'll leave it to you to decide whether he did so out of dishonesty or incompetence):

1. He chose an analysis lab which CLEARLY STATES that its analysis equipment is not sensitive enough to correctly measure samples less than two million years old. Read that again until it sinks in.

2. Austin then took the first set of measured results, WHICH INDICATED LESS THAN TWO MILLION YEARS OLD, and rather than doing what an honest scientist would have done (which is say, "ah, these results are below the lower bounds of the testing equipment, thus they're just reporting equipment noise"), instead Austin ran around in circles and tried to ridicule K/AR dating for giving him out-of-bounds results that made perfect sense.

3. As for the 2.8 +/- 0.6 Mya sub-sample, Austin sort of "forgets" to inform the reader that almost without exception lava rock contains what are known as "inclusions", which are bits of older crystalline mineral mixed in with the fresh lava flow. A volcanic eruption is a violent and hardly "clean" event and pulverized (but unmelted) minerals are incorporated into the lava as it flows up and outward from the volcano. These inclusions will produce K/Ar dates older than the date of the lava flow because they are, indeed, *older* than the lava flow. A real scientist (unlike, say, Austin) will take a great deal of care to extract inclusions from his sample before sending it to a lab to determine the date when the lava itself flowed, and/or hand-pick a "clean" lava sample which has relatively few inclusions compared to the flow as a whole. That's because they *want* to get as valid a date as possible for the lava flow. Now, guess what Austin didn't do? Gee, now guess *why* he didn't do it? Can you say, "*trying* to get an apparently invalid date so as to have a cheap, dishonest excuse to allege that there's something 'wrong' with K/Ar dating"?

As the old saying goes, "garbage in, garbage out" and Austin (unlike the honest scientists who *want* to produce valid dates) had no interest in getting a clean result -- the more "garbage" the result, the more he could claim a creationist "success". So he *submitted* garbage as his sample (i.e., a sample with inclusions, to a lab unable to date anything younger than roughly two million years).

As Henry Barwood notes, "Bad measurements, like bad science, reflect only on the measurer (Austin), not on the measurement (the procedure)."

For more details, see: Young-Earth Creationist 'Dating' of a Mt. St. Helens Dacite: The Failure of Austin and Swenson to Recognize Obviously Ancient Minerals.

Here is a link showing similar problems with the Rubidium-Strontium dating method. Where one set of rocks are dated much older than they are known to be.

Exact same issue (lava rock with inclusions) submitted by the exact same creationist "researcher" (Steven A. Austin). He appears to be a one-trick pony.

Whether such problems have been identified in all radiometric dating methods, I do not know.

"Such problems"? Yeah, if you submit "dirty" samples for testing, you get "dirty" results. So what else is new? Honest scientists clean their samples first. Creationist "scientists" don't, then try to discredit the testing methods when they get bogus results. Go figure.

But it certainly casts significant doubt on it.

The only thing it "certainly casts significant doubt on" is the honesty/competence of "creation scientists".

Now, "kingpins10", I'm curious to know whether you've learned anything about the reliability and honest of "creation scientists" from this experience. And I'm curious to know if you're in any way upset that they lied to you.

See also:

Young-Earth Creationist Helium Diffusion "Dates": Fallacies Based on Bad Assumptions and Questionable Data

RATE Project Turns to Deception

R.A.T.E.: More Faulty Creation Science from The Insitutute for Creation Research

Creation Science Exposed: Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth [R.A.T.E.] Essays Revealing the Truth Behind the Young Earth Claims

Bad Science

So to correct your comment, "When a CREATION SCIENTIST tells you that science tells you a 200-year old rock is 4.5 million years old, I have a problem with the gross dishonesty of the creation scientist." You should too. Creationists lie over and over and over again about science because they see it as a threat to their beliefs.

Trying to "learn" about science from creationists is like trying to "learn" about conservatism from Michael Moore, and for exactly the same reasons.

Anti-science creationists are shameless propagandists and liars. They've been caught at it over and over again. By their fruits you shall know them.

169 posted on 07/19/2009 9:39:01 AM PDT by Ichneumon (Ignorance is curable, but the afflicted has to want to be cured.)
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To: Ichneumon

Our view of the facts do not agree. We will agree to disagree then.


175 posted on 07/20/2009 11:08:12 AM PDT by kingpins10
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