Was the Sabbath kept before God gave the Ten Commandments?

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[DouglasKC]

Was the Sabbath kept
before God gave the Ten Commandments?

It is the purpose of this study to examine the records of Scripture and history to determine once and for all whether it is true that the Bible Sabbath was not observed between Adam and Moses, or whether the real truth is that there is considerable evidence of Sabbath­keeping in the books of Genesis and Exodus before the giving of the Ten Commandments.

In addition to Scripture, we shall call as witnesses many authors, men who were not at all biased in favor of the seventh day, but whose honest statements support what we believe to be the truth.

The Sabbath was created at the very beginning of human history.  In Genesis 2:1-3 we read that God blessed and sanctified the seventh day: 

"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

The Hebrew word translated "sanctified" in Genesis 2:3 and "hallowed" in Exodus 20:11 is qadash, a word meaning "to hallow, to pronounce holy, to consecrate, to set apart for holy use." (1)

There is no denying that God was here setting aside the Sabbath as holy time.  Is it logical to believe that God first created man, then the Sabbath, and then failed to mention to man that the seventh day was holy time?  Certainly not!  God must have immediately explained to Adam all about His sacred seventh day.  We might say that God preached a sermon to Adam and Eve on the first Sabbath of human history, telling them how to observe His day as He wanted it to be observed.

Speaking on this point, John Newton Brown says:

"When it is therefore said by the inspired historian that God 'sanctified the seventh day,' I must understand him to say that God set it apart (from the other six days of labor), to be religiously employed by man." (2)

Jonathan Edwards says in one of his sermons:

"What could be the meaning of God's resting the seventh day, and hallowing and blessing it, which He did, before the giving of the fourth commandment, unless He hallowed and blessed it with respect to mankind? . . .  And it is unreasonable to suppose that He hallowed it only with respect to the Jews, a particular nation, which rose up above 2000 years after." (3)

In Mark 2:27, Jesus says:  "The Sabbath was made for man."  The Greek has an article before "man," so the phrase could be rendered, "The Sabbath was made for the man."  This is a likely reference to Adam, the first man and representative of the whole race that descended from him.  This reasonable conclusion — that Adam kept the Sabbath — is held by Jewish writers.  Solomon Goldman says:  "Both Philo and the Rabbis assumed that the first man emulated his Maker and rested on the Sabbath." (4)

John Kitto says:  

". . . the most judicious commentators agree that Adam and Eve constantly observed the seventh day, and dedicated it in a peculiar manner to the service of the Almighty; and that the first Sabbath . . .  was celebrated in Paradise itself, which pious custom [was] transmitted from our first parents to their posterity." (5)

The Pulpit Commentary tells us:

"Precisely, as we reason that the early and widespread prevalence of sacrifices can only be explained by an authoritative revelation to the first parents of the human family of such a mode of worship, so do we conclude that a seventh-day Sabbath must have been prescribed to man in Eden." (6)

These are sensible and logical conclusions.  It is just not reasonable to think that God would make the Sabbath for man and then keep it from him for over 2000 years until Moses.  So the only fair conclusion is that Adam and Even were keeping the Sabbath from the very beginning.

The very fact that the seven-day week existed, is good evidence the Sabbath also existed.  Joseph Scalinger is quoted as saying:  "The septenary arrangement of days was in use among the Orientals from the remotest antiquity." (7)  The arrangement of time into weeks of seven days carries with it the Sabbath, and Scaliger's statement is only one of many from authorities that the seven-day week is as old as the human race.

Here is another valuable statement from a magazine that the week is a "time unit that, unlike all others, has proceeded in absolute invariable manner since what may be called the dawn of history." (8)

A week of seven days is frequently met with in Scripture.  In Genesis 7:4 and 8:10 and 12 we see that Noah was acquainted with a seven-day week.  Unless the Sabbath was their pivot of time, people then could not have used such a measure of days.  In fact, the marginal rendering of Genesis 7:10 is "on the seventh day," a reference to nothing but the Sabbath.  We may be sure that Noah, a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:9), knew about and kept God's seventh-day Sabbath.

In Genesis 29:27-28, we read that Jacob fulfilled a week for Rachel.  The week here is not synonymous with the seven years Jacob served Laban for Rachel, nor does it mean seven years passed before Jacob married Rachel.  The language shows Jacob married Rachel one week after he had married Leah, and then he served Laban another seven years, as explained in verses 29-30.

In Genesis 50:10, we find that Joseph mourned for his father Jacob seven days, that is, one week.  So Joseph knew about the seven-day week.

Exodus 7:25 mentions a seven-day period in the time of Moses just before the Exodus. This is certainly an exact week, for we read, "seven days were fulfilled."  In addition, Numbers 12:14-15 mentions a seven-day period following Israel's departure from Egypt and before they arrived at Mt. Sinai.

Again, in Judges 14:10-18, we read that Samson's marriage feast lasted for seven days, another reference to the week.

Once again, in Job 2:13, we are told that Job's three friends sat and grieved with him for seven days and seven nights — a complete week.

So it is obvious that a seven-day week with the seventh-day Sabbath was familiar to the patriarchs.  It is as John Dudley has written:

"Adam, when put in the Garden of Eden, was placed in a state of trial, and must have been subjected to the same laws, both moral and religious, as now are and ever have been obligatory on all his descendants." (9)

Of course he was subject to the same laws, and so were and are his descendants.  And one of those unchanging laws is the law of the Sabbath.

Martin Luther wrote:  "Adam . . . held the 'seventh day' sacred; that is, he taught on that day his own family." (10)  Luther is right. Having been told by God that the Sabbath was to be observed, he not only did so himself, but he certainly would have taught his family by precept and example to do the same.

This is proven in Genesis 4:3-4: 

"And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD, and Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof."

The words "in process of time" are translated from the Hebrew mikkets yamim, meaning "at the end of the days."  This can only be telling us that on the Sabbath, Cain and Abel, with the rest of Adam's family, gathered to worship God.  Adam Clarke says,

"it is more probable that it means the Sabbath, on which Adam and his family undoubtedly offered oblations to God, as the divine worship was certainly instituted, and no doubt the Sabbath properly observed in that family." (11) 

Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown say it was "probably on the Sabbath." (12)

Another commentary has this to say:

"More likely this phrase denotes the Sabbath . . . the end of the weekdays.  And as it is plain that the Sabbath was observed as holy time since its formal institution by God in Paradise, it was doubtless kept holy by such appointments of worship as would distinguish the day." (13)

There is nothing in nature that can be pointed to as measuring the week; only the Sabbath marks it.  And only the Sabbath could come "at the end of days."  Clearly, the family of Adam and Eve kept every Sabbath sacred unto the Creator.

There is another interesting corroboration of the meaning of "at the end of the days" in 2Samuel 14:25-26.  We read that Absalom "polled his head . . . ."  The Hebrew for "at every year's end" is "from the end of days to days," that is, at stated times.  This reference, while of course not a reference to the Sabbath, nevertheless shows such Hebrew expressions as are found here and in Genesis 4:3, refer to definite and specific stated times, one of which is the Sabbath. (14)

James Gilfillian, in his book on the Sabbath, has some valuable things to say about the account of the worship of Cain and Abel.  He says: 

"Cain and Abel came together for Divine service.  They were not the only persons present, as appears from Cain's postponement of his murderous deed till he and his victim were out of the sight of others in the field." (15)  

He goes on to point out that:

"the Hebrew word for 'brought' is used never in reference to private and domestic sacrifices, but always of such as were in the times of the Jewish polity brought to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation." (16)

As Gilfillian remarks earlier:  "The prevalence of public worship, with its various accessories, necessarily implies the obligation and observance of a Sabbath." (17)  Yes, without question, Cain and Abel, like all the family of Adam, regularly observed the Sabbath.  In so doing, they were keeping an institution given to Adam at the very beginning.

The next man of God with whom we meet, was certainly keeping the Sabbath, is Enoch. In the Old Testament apocryphal books, in Jubilees 4:18, we read of Enoch that he "recounted the Sabbaths of the years." (18)

Lange, in his Commentary, says:  "Enoch, we cannot hesitate to believe, kept holy Sabbath, or holy seventh day . . . ." (19)

Genesis 5:24 says Enoch walked with God.  Hebrews 11:5 says he pleased God.  Unless he was keeping God's laws, including the Sabbath, Enoch could have neither walked with God, nor pleased Him.  To suggest that he did not know about the Sabbath when his ancestors did is to suggest God dealt differently with men from generation to generation, something utterly contrary to God's nature.

Here is an interesting quotation from the Church Father Tertullian, who was certainly no friend of the Sabbath: 

". . . Adam observed the Sabbath  . . . Abel, when offering to God a holy victim, pleased Him by a religious reverence for the Sabbath;  . . . Enoch, when translated, had been a keeper of the Sabbath . . . ." (20)

Next we come to Noah.  We have already seen that he was well aware of the week.  This man who walked with God (Genesis 6:9) certainly knew and kept the Sabbath.  The reference to Noah building an altar to worship God in Genesis 8:20, follows Sabbath references in verses 10 and 12, which suggests he built an altar and worshipped God immediately upon leaving the ark, very possibly on the following Sabbath.

Here is another proof that Noah kept the Sabbath.  Peter calls Noah a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5).  Psalm 119:172 says of God:  "All Thy commandments are righteousness."  So righteousness amounts to being a commandment keeper.  If Noah preached commandment-keeping to those around him, then he kept the commandments himself, and one of the commandments he certainly was keeping was the Sabbath.

Our next witness is Job, a man we have already seen knew of the week.  This man is described by God Himself in Job 1:8 and 2:3 as perfect and upright, fearing God and eschewing evil, a man like whom there was no one else in the earth.  Job was so careful about the possibility of sin that we read in Job 1:5 that he offered burnt offerings for his children after they had feasts because they might have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.  He did this continually.  Here was a man who truly feared and served God.  Such a man certainly would have kept God's Sabbath.

We even find hints that Job may have been directly involved in conducting worship.  In Job 4:3-4 we read that he had "instructed many" and his words had "upholden him that was falling."  The patriarch says of himself in Job 30:28:  "I stood up, and I cried in the congregation."  Finally, in Job 42:8-9, God commands Job's three friends to offer seven bullocks and seven rams as a burnt offering while Job prays for them.  When they did this, God accepted Job.  All of this could have taken place the very next Sabbath.

Moving on from Job, we pass through the patriarchal period, a time when some claim there is no hint of Sabbath observance.  But this claim is unfounded and will not stand up.  Matthew Henry says in his Commentary:

"Sabbaths are as ancient as the world; and I see no reason to doubt that the Sabbath  . . . was religiously observed by the people of God throughout the patriarchal age." (21)

Lange, whom we quoted above, says this:

"To object that the Bible, in its few brief memoranda of their [the patriarchs'] lives, says nothing about their Sabbath-keeping, any more than it tells us of their forms of prayer and modes of worship, is a worthless argument." (22)

Joseph H. Hertz says: 

"Abraham . . . Isaac . . . Jacob.  The Patriarchs are often represented as having observed the Sabbath." (23)

In a prayer used in Jewish afternoon Sabbath services, the following statement occurs in reference to the Sabbath:  "Abraham was glad, Isaac rejoiced, Jacob and his sons rested thereon." (24)

Cunningham Geikie has this to say about Abraham:

"No details are given of the creed of Abraham, but . . . it must have included all that was true in the popular beliefs of Chaldea.  This would imply his knowledge of the Sabbath; for the seventh day, by a tradition handed down from Eden, was 'holy' in his Eastern native land, and was honored by the cessation of all work on it." (25)

Of course the patriarchs kept the Sabbath.  What do we read of Abraham?  In Genesis 26:5, God says, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."  That has to include the Sabbath.

Furthermore, Abraham would have passed on the true worship of the true God to his children and their children, including Isaac and Jacob, for we read in Genesis 18:19 that God said:  "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD."

One function of patriarchal worship we find mentioned a number of times is the building of altars:  Abraham in Genesis 12:7-8, 13:4 and 18, and 22:9; Isaac in Genesis 26:25; Jacob in Genesis 33:20 and 35:1, 3 and 7.  Also, Genesis 21:33 tells us that Abraham planted a grove and called on the name of the everlasting God.  In every case (except probably the sacrifice of Isaac) building an altar and calling upon God must have included Sabbath worship.

Next we come to Moses and Aaron.  It is frequently suggested that Israel, while living so long in bondage in Egypt, forgot the Sabbath and perhaps were not even able to keep it under the hardships of their slavery.  But there is considerable reason to think this is not true.

Certainly Joshua 24:14 tells us at least some of the Israelites served false gods in Egypt.  But there is no reason to assume this means every one of them did.  God always preserves for Himself a remnant, however small (cp. I Kings 19:18).  While some or many of the Israelites may have worshipped Egyptian idols, the family of Moses is proof that not all did, and Exodus 1:17 mentions the midwives who feared God.

Furthermore, the Midrash records the following: 

"He [Moses] saw that they had no rest, so he went to Pharaoh and said: If one has a slave and he does not give him rest one day in the week he dies; similarly, if thou wilt not give thy slaves one day in the week rest, they will die.  Pharaoh replied:  Go and do with them as thou sayest.  Thereupon Moses ordained for them the Sabbath day for rest." (26)

Further along we find this:

". . . the Israelites possessed scrolls with the contents of which they regaled themselves . . .  each Sabbath, assuring them that God would redeem them.  Thus because they rested on the Sabbath, Pharaoh said to them:  Let heavier work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein: and let them not regard lying words . . . let them not take delight or rest on the Sabbath day. " (27)

In Exodus 5:1 and 10:9 we read that Moses and Aaron said to Pharaoh that he should let Israel go to keep a feast unto God.  Gilfillian points out the feast may have been the Sabbath because of Pharaoh's words in Exodus 5:4-5:  "Wherefore do ye, Moses and Aaron, let the people from their works?  . . . ye make them rest [sabbatize] from their burdens."  He then adds that immediately upon leaving Egypt they kept the Sabbath (Exodus 16), and that in Exodus 12 the Passover references to seven days, to rest from work, and keeping a holy convocation, all suggest Israel was already well acquainted with such things. (28)

Perhaps the most striking proof that the Sabbath was well-known before the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai, is found in Exodus 16, three to four weeks before Israel arrived at Mt. Sinai.  In this chapter the Sabbath is seen as something known and accepted.  But whether new or not, this is emphatically before the giving of the Ten Commandments.

In verses 22-24, Israel was told to gather enough manna for two days and promised that it would not breed worms or putrefy (stink).  In verse 25 Moses tells them the next day is the Sabbath, and he repeats it in verse 26.  When some of the people broke the Sabbath by looking for manna on that day, verse 27, God angrily demands to know how long Israel was going to refuse to keep His laws, specifically the Sabbath, verses 28-29.  So then the people rested on the Sabbath, verse 30.

If the Sabbath was so new to Israel, just announced to them in fact the day before, it is understandable some could have been confused about its proper observance.  In such a case, God's anger hardly seems justified if He had just introduced the Sabbath the day before.  No, Israel had long known of the Sabbath, and God's anger was aroused because some of the people failed to honor His day as He had directed.

The Sabbath was a well-known institution in Israel, something they had been acquainted with long before this time.  The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us: 

"The Sabbath is first met with in connexion [sic] with the fall of the manna . . . but it there appears to be an institution already well-known to the Israelites." (29)

Adam Clarke has this to say:

"There is nothing in either text or context that seems to intimate that the Sabbath was now first given to the Israelites, as some have supposed:  on the contrary, it is here spoken of as being perfectly well known, from its having been generally observed." (30)

Joseph H. Hertz, speaking of Exodus 20:8, comments:

"The use of the word 'remember' may indicate that the institution was well-known to the Israelites, long before their manna experiences; that it was a treasured and sacred institution inherited from the days of the Patriarchs." (31)

Samuel Wakefield, in discussing the mention of the Sabbath in this case, says that it was

"the recognition of an institution which had been observed from the beginning, and had never been either forgotten or suspended." 

He adds,

"There is not the slightest intimation in the passage that the event which it records was the original institution of the Sabbath,"

but rather, he says,

"The contrary seems to be the natural inference from the whole narrative.  The Sabbath is spoken of exactly in the manner in which a historian would speak of a well-known institution." (32)

Yes, when God says in Exodus 20:8 to "Remember the Sabbath day," He is referring to something Israel already knew, or they could not have "remembered" it.  Sir Charles Marston writes:  "The very word 'Remember' presupposes that the Sabbath day was already in existence . . . ." (33)

Another writer observes:

"The use of 'remember' in connection with the fourth commandment implies that the weekly rest day was not a new institution.  It was observed before Sinai was reached.  The Sabbath was a recognized institution long before the days of Moses." (34)

Wakefield, in discussing the giving of the Ten Commandments, makes the following remarks: 

"We are not to suppose that the Decalogue imposed new duties upon men which had never been before required.  It only enjoined those which had been previously instituted . . . The giving of the Decalogue, therefore, did not originate the laws which it contains, but was only a republication of them in a new and convenient form, and under circumstances which were calculated to make them most solemnly impressive." (35)

He then offers these cogent observations:

"The fourth commandment contains two distinct allusions to the previous institution of the Sabbath.   The first is in the clause 'Remember the Sabbath day,' which represents the Sabbath as having been previously instituted . . . . The second is in the reason assigned for keeping the Sabbath.  It is 'the Sabbath of the LORD thy God' the day in which He 'rested' from all His creative work.  'Wherefore, the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.'  Thus the seventh day was set apart from the beginning as a holy day of sacred rest." (36)

Charles Buck says the fact that the Sabbath is not mentioned in the patriarchal age is no proof against it, any more than "it is against its existence from Moses to the end of David's reign, which was near 440 years." (37)

We have seen that the Sabbath was generally observed from Adam to Moses, and, as Buck says, it was certainly observed during the reign of David, a man after God's own heart (1Samuel 13:14).  There are many references in the Psalms to worshipping before God and in God's house, all of which imply Sabbath worship and Sabbath-keeping.

The evidence is now complete, irrefutable, and satisfying to any honest mind.  The Sabbath was kept by God's faithful people from Adam to Moses, honored and observed by those who walked with God.  To say there is no indication of Sabbath observance between Adam and Moses is to show a total lack of knowledge of the facts.

Footnotes

1.  Benjamin Davies, ed., Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon, p. 554.
2.  John Newton Brown, The Obligation of the Sabbath, p. 48.
3.  Jonathan Edwards, Sermon XIII, Works, Vol. II, p. 95.
4.  Solomon Goldman, The Book of Human Destiny, Vol. 2, "In the Beginning," p. 744.
5.  John Kitto, An Illustrated History of the Holy Bible, p. 47.
6.  The Pulpit Commentary, Vol. I, p. 36.
7.   Joseph J. Scaliger, De Emendatione Temporum, lib. 1, quoted by James Gilfillian, The Sabbath Viewed in the Light of Reason, Revelation, and History, pp. 364-5.
8.   Nature, June 6, 1931.
9.   John Dudley, Naology; or, a Treatise on the Origin, Progress, and Symbolical Import of the Sacred Structures of the Most Eminent Nations and Ages of the World, p. 47.
10.   Martin Luther, Commentary on Genesis, Vol. I, p. 139.
11.   Adam Clarke, Commentary, Vol. I, p. 58.
12.   Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, A Commentary . . . on the Old and New Testaments, Vol. I, p. 20.
13.   Melanchton W. Jacobus, Notes . . . on the Book of Genesis, p. 133.
14.  On this, see Thomas Scott, The Holy Bible . . . with Explanatory Notes, Vol. II, p. 152.
15.   James Gilfillian, The Sabbath, p. 281.
16.   Ibid., pp. 281-282.
17.  Ibid., p. 281.
18.   Jubilees 4:18, in R. H. Charles', Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, Vol. II, p. 18.
19.   John Peter Lange, A Commentary on the Holy Scriptures, Vol. I, p. 197.
20.  Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews, chap. IV, "Of the Observance of the Sabbath," Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 155.
21.   Matthew Henry, A Commentary on the Holy Bible, Vol. I, p. 8.
22.   Lange, op. cit.
23.  Joseph H. Hertz, The Authorized Daily Prayer Book, p. 579.
24.   Samuel M. Segal, The Sabbath Book, p. 122.
25.   Cunningham Geikie, Hours With the Bible, Vol. I, p. 258.
26.   Midrash Rabbah, Exodus, Soncino ed., on Exodus 8:28, p. 35.
27.   Ibid., on Exodus 5:18, p. 98.
28.   Gilfillian, op. cit., p. 284.
29.   The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIII, art. "Sabbath," p. 288.
30.   Clarke, op. cit., Vol. I, p. 386.
31.   Joseph H. Hertz, ed., The Pentateuch and Haftorahs, p. 297.
32.   Samuel Wakefield, A Complete System of Christian Theology, p. 503.
33.   Sir Charles Marston, New Bible Evidence, p. 207.
34.   Henry T. Scholl, quoting H. Clay Trumbull, New York Christian Observer, December 24, 1913.
35.   Wakefield, op. cit., p. 505.
36.   Ibid.
37.  Charles Buck, A Theological Dictionary, art. "Sabbath," p. 403.

Written By: Sabbath Research Center

Minor Editing by BibleStudy.org

[DouglasKC]

What are the two things one can do Biblically written by God Almighty that will guarantee “a long lifespan”?

The first one I knew off the top of my head, the 5th commandment:

Exo 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.

The second one I had to do some searching on but it could be either one:

Deu 32:46 and he said to them: "Set your hearts on all the words which I testify among you today, which you shall command your children to be careful to observe—all the words of this law.
Deu 32:47 For it is not a futile thing for you, because it is your life, and by this word you shall prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess."

Pro 10:27 The fear of the LORD prolongs days, But the years of the wicked will be shortened.

Though I suppose that fear of the Lord and being careful to observe God's laws could be the same thing.

[dangus]

Thanks for your courteous response. In all honesty, I was a little critical of the writing style because I associated it with arguments he wasn’t actually making, such as the supposedly diabolical nature of Sunday worship.

But I think it is quite worth reflecting on the very reasonable, even presumptively true notion that unfallen Man needed the Sabbath. I’ve always been taught that every day should be a day of worship, that it is a vital spiritual practice to turn even your labor at the office into worship. But in our fallen nature, we cannot do that. We need to set time aside to worship; we need the Sabbath. But it’s not just because of our fallen nature and our (near) inability to worship as we labor.

It’s because we need rest. And we can rest and worship at the same time. In fact, true worship is a rest for the soul. It’s regenerative. It’s purifying. Even for unfallen Man, whose evey labor could be worship, Sabbath is commanded!

[Zionist Conspirator]

I think I’ll have to go back to the Bible see what the Apostle Paul and the other Apostles said...

Yeah, and why don't you read the Book of Mormon while you're at it. ;-)

[Zionist Conspirator]

Israel's mission is to compel the nations of the world to observe the Seven Noachide Laws. And those laws forbid complete Shabbat observance, as Jews practice it, to non-Jews.

Does scripture tell you this or does tradition tell you this?

So, since Scripture commands that some sacrifices be "heaved" and some others be "waved" (and even sometimes that "people" be "waved") but doesn't say a word about how this is done, where do you suppose those instructions are located?

What do you think the Benei Yisra'el studied for those forty years in the Midbar before Moses wrote down and distributed the tribal scrolls just before his death?

Protestantism was right to reject Catholicism's/Orthodoxy's traditions. The problem with those religions is that they replaced G-d's Traditions with their own man-made ones. In rejecting the very concept of an authentic Tradition from G-d Protestantism, like its heretical Jewish predecessor 'Qara'ut, completely jumped the track.

[Star Traveler]

You said — Yeah, and why don’t you read the Book of Mormon while you’re at it. ;-)

—

No thanks on that offer. Ole Joseph Smith listened to an angel preaching different gospel... LOL...

Galatians 1:6-9

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

---

And I also agree with the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy...

For reference to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy, a position held by many Christians (and especially those who support Israel, for sure...) see the following link...

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy with Exposition
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

—

The “Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy” was produced at an international Summit Conference of evangelical leaders, held at the Hyatt Regency O’Hare in Chicago in the fall of 1978. This congress was sponsored by the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy. The Chicago Statement was signed by nearly 300 noted evangelical scholars, including James Boice, Norman L. Geisler, John Gerstner, Carl F. H. Henry, Kenneth Kantzer, Harold Lindsell, John Warwick Montgomery, Roger Nicole, J. I. Packer, Robert Preus, Earl Radmacher, Francis Schaeffer, R. C. Sproul, and John Wenham.

The ICBI disbanded in 1988 after producing three major statements: one on biblical inerrancy in 1978, one on biblical hermeneutics in 1982, and one on biblical application in 1986. The following text, containing the “Preface” by the ICBI draft committee, plus the “Short Statement,” “Articles of Affirmation and Denial,” and an accompanying “Exposition,” was published in toto by Carl F. H. Henry in God, Revelation And Authority, vol. 4 (Waco, Tx.: Word Books, 1979), on pp. 211-219. The nineteen Articles of Affirmation and Denial, with a brief introduction, also appear in A General Introduction to the Bible, by Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix (Chicago: Moody Press, rev. 1986), at pp. 181-185. An official commentary on these articles was written by R. C. Sproul in Explaining Inerrancy: A Commentary (Oakland, Calif.: ICBI, 1980), and Norman Geisler edited the major addresses from the 1978 conference, in Inerrancy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1980).

—

Clarification of some of the language used in this Statement may be found in the 1982 Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics [http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html ].

[Zionist Conspirator]

Unfortunately, you seem to be missing my point, which is that the "new testament" is no more "inspired" than the book of mormon is.

I love Fundamentalist Protestants, but they have no grounds whatsoever for their belief in the Protestant bible other than habit and nostalgia.

[Star Traveler]

Well, I would say that if people accepted Jesus as the Messiah of Israel, in order to be saved, like the following, they would be doing good...

And since those were the guys who were with Jesus, and saw Him and then told the other people in Jerusalem about Him, and they accepted — they obviously know what they’re talking about... :-)

---

Acts 2

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.

21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—

23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

25 For David says concerning Him: ‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.

26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.

27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’

29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,

31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand,

35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ‘

36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

—

And then, along with the Church in Jerusalem, in which James and Peter gave authorization to Paul to go to the Gentiles along with the instructions that the church gave to the Gentiles, I would say that they also knew what they were doing way back then, too...

Acts 15

1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren.

4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,

9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles.

13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me:

14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.

15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, And I will set it up;

17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.

19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,

20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”*—to whom we gave no such commandment—

25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

30 So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter.

31 When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement.

32 Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words.

33 And after they had stayed there for a time, they were sent back with greetings from the brethren to the apostles.

34 However, it seemed good to Silas to remain there.

35 Paul and Barnabas also remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

---

So, at any rate, I would go along with what Peter said in talking to the men of Jerusalem about Jesus the Messiah of Israel, who had come for the salvation of all, and then of Peter and James, from the church in Jerusalem, commissioning Paul (and others) to go to the Gentiles with the gospel message of salvation.

That sounds pretty good to me... and obviously it did too, to those who were with Jesus and saw Him alive, after His death, and received His instructions from Him as what to do.

—

Thus, this is a letter written directly to me, and all others who listen to those who preach the Gospel of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel per the Bible, which includes the writings of the Apostles who were with Jesus and received His instructions directly from Him...

---

[the letter written to me and all others, from the Apostles in Jesus’ day...]

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”*—to whom we gave no such commandment — it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

---

That’s a letter to me and all others who will listen...

[Star Traveler]

Oh.., and one more thing...

You said — I love Fundamentalist Protestants, but they have no grounds whatsoever for their belief in the Protestant bible other than habit and nostalgia.

—

Actually Protestants or Fundamentalists don’t have any real part in this. They simply recognize the inspiration (i.e., as something given directly from God to them) of those writing of the Apostles who were with Jesus, just as others has recognized those writings from the Apostles — from the early centuries.

So, it’s not anything “particular” to either Protestants or Fundamentalists, but to Christians of all ages (of any century and any age) who have recognized and do recognize the inspired Word of God, that came from the Apostles of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel.

[Quix]

WRONG.

The prophecies fulfilled in the NEW TESTAMENT demonstrate otherwise.

The congruence between OT AND NT prophecies indicate otherwise.

The congruence between the God of the OT and the God of the NT demonstrates otherwise.

The congruence between Daniel, Ezekiel, the shorter Prophets & Revelation indicates otherwise.

God’s Holy Spirit within me indicates otherwise.

REGARDLESS, PLEASE AVOID TAKING THE ID CHIP AT ALL COSTS.

[240B]

Correct

Kabed avecha v et emecha (honor your father and mother) lema’an yarechoon yamecha (for the sake of extending your days)

The second one is called “shaluach ha ken” (sending away the mother bird)

When gathering eggs, one must not kill or capture the mother bird. One cannot eat the egg and the hen that laid it.

Lema’an yarechoon yamecha

I love you

[240B]

Correct

Kabed avecha v et emecha (honor your father and mother) lema’an yarechoon yamecha (for the sake of extending your days)

The second one is called “shaluach ha ken” (sending away the mother bird)

When gathering eggs, one must not kill or capture the mother bird. One cannot eat the egg and the hen that laid it.

Lema’an yarechoon yamecha

Utmost respect
I love you

[Zionist Conspirator]

1)Posting lengthy quotes from the "new testament" does not, in and of itself, mean anything. If the "new testament" is false you can quote it till doomsday and it won't make it true. As I said, I love you Fundamentalist Protestants, but you're no different from existentialists when it comes to what you believe.

2)No one can just "recognize" inspiration. Only the Holy Torah was written directly by G-d Himself and then dictated to Moses letter-for-letter and never had to canonized by a duly constituted authority. All the rest of Scripture other than the Torah is mediated through prophets or soferim (scribes) and couldn't be accepted just because someone made a claim about them. It took the 'Anshei HaKenesset HaGedolah to approve of them before they could be accepted as Scripture.

3)Most Jews rejected J*sus' claims, so you're picking the chr*stian faction over the Jews who practiced authentic, Torah True Judaism is merely an expression of your own preconceptions.

Finally, a further defense of authentic Tradition is that the First Torah was not cranked out of a Thomas Nelson printing press but written by Moses' hand at G-d's dictation. This scroll, in order to be faithfully reproduced through the ages, must be written according to a body of very strict rules which are not recorded in the Written Torah in order to assure its authenticity. No Authentic Oral Tradition, no Kosher Torah Scrolls. And the Kosher Torah Scroll, not any printed Bible, is the Word of G-d in its purest and most perfect form.

One reason Protestantism rejects Tradition (aside from the hypocrisy of the Catholics) is that it has only existed during the time of the printing press. This leads to a subconscious belief that no human hand has ever had to physically write and no (unwritten) rules exist to assure the copies are authentic. That's an excuse the Qara'im don't have.

[Zionist Conspirator]

God’s Holy Spirit within me indicates otherwise.

That's Protestant for "my feelings." And yes, that's what it all comes down to in the end.

Ironically, you're one of those who admit that the messianic prophecies are literal rather than "spiritual" and therefore that not all the prophecies have been fulfilled. Until they have, no messiah has come.

[Star Traveler]

If Peter, James, Paul and the other Apostles, who were Jews knew what happened, testified to it, and announced to the world that Jesus had risen from the dead and was at the right hand of the Father in Heaven — and many other Jews in Jerusalem who knew those things, too, joined them in their belief and faith in Jesus as the Messiah of Israel — then I’ll go along with their testimony.

I don’t see their testimony refuted by those who were there with the Apostles, living in the same place at the same time. It’s clear that no one at that time could refute that testimony and that’s why the Christian Church grew dramatically at that time.

And there has been nothing to refute it in the intervening time. There have been doubters and naysayers who may refuse to believe it, but that’s their choice to refuse to believe it.

However, no one could present any evidence at that time, when it was directly available to them (i.e., *actually being there* and getting witnesses to testify to the contrary of those facts). And so, if no one could do it at that time when everyone was alive and able to testify — certainly no one in the 21st Century is going to be able to testify convincingly... LOL...

You’ll notice that they have over 500 witnesses to Jesus being alive and taken up into Heaven...

—

1 Corinthians 15

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

—

Acts 1

1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,

3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them during forty days and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;

5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

—

That sounds like a mighty large number of witnesses, that if they were to be taken into court to testify to those things (all of them) we would have an *absolutely certain* decision that Jesus was indeed the Messiah of Israel, seen alive by all those people, after having been crucified, and also seen by those people actually being taken up into Heaven to be at the right hand of God, until He returns to earth again, to set up the Kingdom here...

I think I’ll take their testimony as more accurate than any one else’s “supposed” and “modern day” testimony... :-)

[Zionist Conspirator]

If Peter, James, Paul and the other Apostles, who were Jews knew what happened, testified to it, and announced to the world that Jesus had risen from the dead and was at the right hand of the Father in Heaven — and many other Jews in Jerusalem who knew those things, too, joined them in their belief and faith in Jesus as the Messiah of Israel — then I’ll go along with their testimony.

And of course there were other Jews of the exact same time who believed the exact opposite, but because you weren't raised in that belief you don't even consider it.

I don’t see their testimony refuted by those who were there with the Apostles, living in the same place at the same time. It’s clear that no one at that time could refute that testimony and that’s why the Christian Church grew dramatically at that time.

And there has been nothing to refute it in the intervening time. There have been doubters and naysayers who may refuse to believe it, but that’s their choice to refuse to believe it.

You're completely missing the most important issue here. Does the Torah, the direct unmediated Word of G-d, allow for such a religion as chr*stianity? If it doesn't it doesn't matter how many miracles J*sus performed or how many times he rose from the dead. That's something no chr*stian seems to be able to wrap his head around though; there's this root assumption that the Torah was never meant to be anything but a temporary "preparation" for something greater. In fact, this was never understood at any time. The Torah was never temporary, or "preparatory" for something "greater," G-d forbid. And the Prophets and Writings are lower, not higher, than the Torah. It is the peak as well as the foundation.

However, no one could present any evidence at that time, when it was directly available to them (i.e., *actually being there* and getting witnesses to testify to the contrary of those facts). And so, if no one could do it at that time when everyone was alive and able to testify — certainly no one in the 21st Century is going to be able to testify convincingly... LOL...

Again, your assuming your conclusion. You're assuming that the "new testament" and chr*stian tradition are true, and that's the very thing we're arguing about. Your continual assertions of your beliefs prove absolutely nothing but that you believe them.

You’ll notice that they have over 500 witnesses to Jesus being alive and taken up into Heaven...

Even if this is true this does not justify the chr*stian religion. The Torah was given in a National Revelation to the entire Nation of Israel in which some three million people (including women, children, and the "mixed multitude") heard the Voice of G-d--not a human being speaking in behalf of G-d and not a human being claiming to be G-d. This is the most authentic Revelation possible and even if it were to be overturned (G-d forbid) it would require a similar Revelation by the Invisible G-d to the entire Nation of Israel to do away with it. Compared to this all religions rest on purely subjective claims.

And btw, if you're going to go by what a large number of people see, you'll have to convert to Catholicism because of the large number of people who witnessed the sun dance in Portugal in 1917. Of course, you can always simply ignore that or ascribe it to Satan because it contradicts what you were raised to believe, but if you're going to reject the testimonies of large numbers of people then your acceptance of the testimonies of the "new testament" are obviously tainted by your assumptions and you aren't really ascribing authority to the witnesses at all.

[snip] I don't suppose I can make you understand that your quotes of the "new testament" hold no authority for me and therefore prove nothing.

That sounds like a mighty large number of witnesses, that if they were to be taken into court to testify to those things (all of them) we would have an *absolutely certain* decision that Jesus was indeed the Messiah of Israel, seen alive by all those people, after having been crucified, and also seen by those people actually being taken up into Heaven to be at the right hand of God, until He returns to earth again, to set up the Kingdom here...

I think I’ll take their testimony as more accurate than any one else’s “supposed” and “modern day” testimony... :-)

But as I have demonstrated, you don't really believe in chr*stianity because of the testimonies; you accept the testimonies because you're a chr*stian. You reason in a circle.

The "new testament" is no different from the "holy qur'an" or the "book of mormon." It's just been around longer.

[Star Traveler]

Well, the fact that there were Jews around that didn’t choose to accept Jesus as the Messiah of Israel is evident, even within the Apostle’s writings themselves. The point was that no one could refute what actually happened, with Jesus being raised from the dead, with Him being taken up in the view of over 500 others — and thus, all they had was their *refusal* to believe and not any evidence to refute what happened.

Now, the Jews who did believe on Jesus as the Messiah of Israel, they also recognized, at that time, that He fulfilled the prophecies of the coming Messiah, besides being confirmed in what He did (i.e., what Jesus did) and then how He was raised from the dead, in addition to Jesus raising others from the dead.

But, in Israel’s history, there have always been those who have refused to believe and/or refused to follow what God said. So, that refusal to believe, by itself, is nothing special or new. What is significant, is the total inability of the leaders and others (who refused to believe) to refute anything that the Christians did, at that time or refute what had happened to Jesus.

All they would have had to do, to “knock it out” (at that time) would have been to refute anything of all the things that the Apostles said — or even what they *did* (as in the healings they did themselves, after Jesus was gone).

Again, a total inability to be able to do so. That’s the confirmation that we have from that time.

And as for whether the Torah allows for Christianity. Well, the all the Jews who were steeped and raised, all their lives on the Torah, obviously said yes. Paul says yes, and it appears he was a strong one for the Torah, especially considering he was initially “going after” Christians and trying to kill them — until — Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, spoke to Paul directly and Paul then saw where he was wrong. Paul’s testimony, being who he was, as far as a Jew, is a powerful testimony to Christianity.

As far as a testimony to the entire nation..., I think that Jesus gave that testimony to the entire nation and that you would be hard pressed to find someone (i.e., a Jew at that time and in that place) who would not be aware. Jesus did give that testimony to the entire nation. And a large number of Jews (and then Gentiles) accepted the testimony of Jesus, especially after God raised Him from the dead, which confirmed His testimony.

And finally, the witness and the testimony is there. A person can accept it or reject it, but it’s not because it’s not valid or not accurate. All that’s contained in the Bible, in what we’ve been able to find out about, has been shown to be accurate and valid.

Of course, that’s what it’s all about — in that you can accept what God has provided, in Jesus as the Messiah of Israel — or not. If you choose not to accept it — it doesn’t invalidate the evidence and the proofs that are there — it merely shows which side of God’s salvation, that He has provided, you are on.

Jesus as the Messiah of Israel is the salvation provided by God for Israel and the whole world.

I can’t help you much more than that.

[Quix]

Historically, Jews have had no adequate explanation for the

Old Testament’s presentation of

1. MESSIAH AS SUFFERING SERVANT

AND AS

2. CONQUERING KING.

The New Testament works that out quite neatly.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I'm sorry, but you are simply refusing to consider the fact that the Torah simply does not provide for any such "fulfillment" as chr*stianity. Again and again and again G-d warned Israel never to stray from Torah and warned of the direst consequences of doing so. Chr*stianity has always demanded that Jews cease observing Torah because it was "fulfilled." It is very dishonest of chr*stians to invoke Jewish deviation from the Torah (and G-d's subsequent punishment of them for it) as being of the same nature of Jewish rejection of chr*stianty, but they have done this for two thousand years.

Your constant invoking of the "new testament," of J*sus, and Paul is merely the fallacious argument of "assuming the consequent"--ie, "proving" the point in dispute by assuming and invoking it. The Torah is G-d's Ultimate Revelation. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your head around? Who dares deviate from it (or from Noachide Law for non-Jews) because someone allegedly rose from the dead? The True G-d has never risen from the dead because the True G-d has never died--because the True G-d is not a human being!

Perhaps one day when you have nothing else to do you might, just as a lark, read the thirteenth chapter of Deuteronomy and see why Jews (and all people) are forbidden to follow new religions?

Finally, your assumption that the purpose of religion is "salvation" illustrates your deep-set assumptions. Salvationism is a man-centered, humanistic concept. The True G-d is our L-rd, Father, and Master, not our servant.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Historically, Jews have had no adequate explanation for the Old Testament’s presentation of 1. MESSIAH AS SUFFERING SERVANT AND AS 2. CONQUERING KING. The New Testament works that out quite neatly.

1) Israel is the suffering servant. Mashiach is the conquering king. And chr*stianity has always rejected the idea of messiah as conquering king, opting instead for a non-literal "spiritual" messiah. Only in very recent times have any chr*stians accepted the idea of a literal king messiah.

I'm sure human minds could make up any number of "revelations" that "work quite nicely" in explaining things. But what chr*stians of all stripes and persuasions simply refuse to consider (as I have been pointing out for ten years now) is that Judaism is based on the Torah. There is no higher revelation than the Torah, nor will there ever be. The Prophets and Writings are lower, not higher, than the Torah. The Torah is the supreme master of all prophets and all scribes. If you would ever stop reading the "new testament" or the Na"KH with chr*stian assumptions and read the Torah you would see this.

[geologist]

The word of god is law.

There is oral tradition and there is written law ... word of God.

Inspired by God writing the 10 commandments ...

God inspired Moses to write the previously known oral beliefs.

Very interesting thread.