Thousands beaten, raped in Irish reform schools

Yahoo/AP ^

[nuconvert]

DUBLIN – A fiercely debated, long-delayed investigation into Ireland's Roman Catholic-run institutions says priests and nuns terrorized thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades — and government inspectors failed to stop the chronic beatings, rapes and humiliation.

Nine years in the making, Wednesday's 2,600-page report sides almost completely with the horrific reports of abuse from former students sent to more than 250 church-run, mostly residential institutions.

It concluded that church officials always shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest to protect their own reputations and, according to documents uncovered in the Vatican, knew that many pedophiles were serial attackers.

[ConservativeMind]

And I’m not sure where you are getting that it was “legal” to abuse children.

That was the Catholic church's view, given before the Irish court. From the article:

“..The commission dismissed as implausible a central defense of the religious orders — that, in bygone days, people did not recognize the sexual abuse of a child as a criminal offense, but rather as a sin that required repentance.

In their testimony, religious orders typically cited this as the principal reason why sex-predator priests and brothers were sheltered within the system and moved to new posts where they could still maintain daily contact with children...”

That's your church for you.

[wolfcreek]

Apparently, it’s easier if you make up your own rules. (their’s, not yours)

I seriously doubt Jesus would of wanted it to be so complicated/convoluted.

[WVKayaker]

I seriously doubt Jesus would of wanted it to be so complicated/convoluted.

He didn't even require "membership"...

Luke 7

1When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2There a centurion's servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, "This man deserves to have you do this, 5because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue." 6So Jesus went with them.

He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

9When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, "I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel." 10Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well... -NIV

[wolfcreek]

Found this to be quite enlightening.

Jesus says, “Beware of religion”

Here’s another great churchless teaching story from Anthony de Mello, my kind of Jesuit priest. The kind who was censured by the Catholic Church after his death for speaking the truth too freely. This is from his book, “Taking Flight.”

“The priest announced that Jesus Christ himself was coming to church the following Sunday. People turned up in large numbers to see him. Everybody expected him to preach, but he only smiled when introduced and said, “Hello.”
Everyone offered him hospitality for the night, especially the priest, but he refused politely. He said he would spend the night in church. How fitting, everybody thought.

He slipped away early next morning before the church doors were opened. And, to their horror, the priest and people found their church had been vandalized. Scribbled everywhere on the walls was the single word, “Beware.”

No part of the church was spared: the doors and windows, the pillars and the pulpit, the altar, even the Bible that rested on the lectern. “Beware.” Scratched in large letters and in small, in pencil and pen and paint of every conceivable color. Wherever the eye rested one could see the words: “Beware, beware, Beware, Beware, beware, beware…”

Shocking. Irritating. Confusing. Fascinating. Terrifying. What were they supposed to beware of? It did not say. It just said “Beware.”

The first impulse of the people was to wipe out every trace of this defilement, this sacrilege. They were restrained from doing this only by the thought that it was Jesus himself who had done this deed. Now that mysterious word “Beware” began to sink into the minds of the people each time they came to church.

They began to beware of the Scriptures, so they were able to profit from the Scriptures without falling into bigotry. They began to beware of sacraments, so they were sanctified without becoming superstitious. The priest began to beware of his power over the people, so he was able to help without controlling.

And everybody began to beware of religion which leads the unwary to self-righteousness. They became law-abiding, yet compassionate to the weak. They began to beware of prayer, so it no longer stopped them from becoming self-reliant. They even began to beware of their notions of God so they were able to recognize him outside the narrow confines of their church.

They have now inscribed the shocking word over the entrance of their church and as you drive past at night you can see it blazing above the church in multicolored neon lights.”

[netmilsmom]

You are reading it the way you want to see it.
I’m telling you, and you can reference it yourself, that sexual abuse of children was seen as a DISORDER. A treatable disorder. In order to treat a person, one must expose them to the focus of their disorder. We know it’s wrong now, but you are looking at this as we do TODAY. Not then. It’s as if you are upset that leeches were used to treat illness and refuse to see that the person administering the cure knew no better. That’s how libs argue, on feelings not facts.

The words “The commission dismissed” do not show up on a search of the article. I’m not sure where the quotes are coming from, but context may be important

If you have nothing more than these quotes, and cannot context them for the time. Please refrain from responding to me again.

[WVKayaker]

The "church"is not within brick walls. It is within beating breasts!

I am convinced that most Roman Catholics are Christians. I am not aware that Jesus chose to have a Pope! After telling Peter he was a rock, Peter denied His VERY PRESENT Creator! Yet, upon this rock is built the foundations in Rome!

God requires a commitment to Himself, not to any earthly organization. We are only told that:

Hebrews 10:

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. -NIV

[SharpRightTurn]

“priests and nuns terrorized thousands of boys and girls in workhouse-style schools for decades”

If untrue, the Irish government should apologize and fire the persons responsible for this report.

If true, there is institutional sickness, decay, and rot in the RC church there.

[MrEdd]

The irony of your assertion that I personally don’t know anything about this but what I read is collosal, under the circumstances.

[Alex Murphy]

If we hadn't all witnessed the CC paying out millions of dollars in *reparations* for past offenses, this might be a little more suspect.

Not millions - billions. At least $3,000,000,000 to date, with over $600,000,000 of that paid out by one archdiocese alone.

[WVKayaker]

The irony of your assertion that I personally don’t know anything about this but what I read is collosal, under the circumstances.

That sounds more like a problem than a solution. Why so much interest? Is it prurient, or just morbid curiosity?

Phillipians 4: 8 8Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.-KJV

************

Eph 6; 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.

9And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.-NIV

[wolfcreek]

I suspected *billion* but, didn't want to sound overblown.

Either way, it makes me nauseous thinking of those children and what they have had to go through their entire lives. I realize the CC isn't alone in this and that there's evil around every corner, everywhere on this planet. I also realize there's an all out war on Christianity and all these accusations must be carefully reviewed. However, the volumes of evidence against the CC must be addressed by the law and it's members.

[WVKayaker]

I am definitely out of the loop here. Is this just a Catholic bash, or are we supposed to be lifting up Christ?

It may nauseate you, but God is still in Heaven. There are eyes watching all. Prayer is a good place to start! This is not just about Christianity. It is about sinners. They are part of the same group!

I totally disagree with much the dogma and rituals of the Roman Catholic religion. That said, we worship the same God and Savior... if we are truly His.

Thousands of little boys and girls,as well as grown men and women, are raped every day. Why focus on one group as opposed to the problem. That is like saying guns kill.

Sin is sin with or without a turned-around collar!

[MrEdd]

Why so much interest? Is it prurient, or just morbid curiosity?

I and my sister lived this stuff as children. I move in a social circle of people in recovery from this crap.

Tell me, are you a practicing pedophile yourself, or just a fan of pedophiles?

Also tell me (reviewing your comments to me and the inferences you pulled up out of thin air) is it in any way whatsoever unfair of me to ask you that?

[DoughtyOne]

Good for them. My heart goes out to them.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Ping to more of the same.

Wednesday's five-volume report on the probe — which was resisted by Catholic religious orders — concluded that church officials shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy...

The Catholic religious orders that ran more than 50 workhouse-style reform schools from the late 19th century until the mid-1990s offered public words of apology, shame and regret Wednesday. But when questioned, their leaders indicated they would continue to protect the identities of clergy accused of abuse — men and women who were never reported to police, and were instead permitted to change jobs and keep harming children.

Nothing new there. Over a century of abuse never reported but instead hidden, protected and perpetuated.

A government-appointed panel has paid 12,000 survivors of the schools, orphanages and other church-run residences an average of $90,000 each — on condition they surrender their right to sue either the church or state. About 2,000 more claims are pending. Irish Catholic leaders cut a controversial deal with the government in 2001 that capped the church's contribution at $175 million — a fraction of the final cost.

And on this very thread we hear people saying they doubt the story. It must have something to do with viewing priests as "another Christ." They're entitled. Who would send their children to schools run by this type of institutionalized coercion, secrecy, lies and privilege?

[DoughtyOne]

That’s a reasoned observation. Thanks for the mention.

[1000 silverlings]

Interesting that people doubt the story. People my age survived this stuff, it’s only relatively recently that schools began treating children like humans.

[WVKayaker]

Tell me, are you a practicing pedophile yourself, or just a fan of pedophiles?

LOL...

Is that your response? I doubt you expect a response. I have no wife to beat.

I'm sorry if you had a bad child hood. God can heal you. First you must ask!

The best "social circle" you could find, is a group of loving, committed Christians. I never inferred anything. I made observations about you from your comments. Your response tells a lot!

This thread is being used to attack, not to educate. Your posts have done nothing but spew hatred against an organization and offers nothing to further the cause of Christ.

Yes, pedophilia is bad. Yes, rape is bad. Yes, sleeping with the minister's wife is bad. Yes, speeding 65 in a 55 zone is bad. It's all sin to God! Try to focus on something good in your life. You'll find it much better than drowning in sorrow. Pity parties are such lonely places to go...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Yesterday's NY Times article, posted on Lucianne, revealed:

*Many of the accused are long dead (unable to defend themselves from charges).

*The commission was largely unsuccessful in getting records from the Irish Education Department (no documentary evidence).

*Church/Government agencies were called "uncooperative" if they asked for proof of the allegations.

*there’s a significant monetary motive for presenting unprovable charges ($1.5 billion in government-paid compensation).

Apply those factors to a different hypothetical situation.

Say civilians in Italy, Germany, Korea, Japan, etc. testified that U.S. soldiers abused them 40 - 60 years ago.

Say the accused were long dead; written records were lacking; US agencies which insisted on proof were deemed "uncooperative"; and there were highly publicized funds available to accusers with or without evidence.

Would we, as Americans, assume it was all true, and join in a worldwide chorus condemning U.S. servicemen as depraved monsters?

No?

Interesting.

Some of this is proven: there have been deeply disturbing, damning, criminal admissions. But with the fair judgment that individuals cannot be subjected to "naming and shaming" and penalty without evidence, perhaps all we can demand is God's terrible judgment on those responsible in the past, and far better safeguards in the future.

I hope nobody takes this as a justification for abuse and cover-up --- to any degree whatsoever. If somebody abused my child, I would demand their guts in a Hefty bag.

But by the same token, decent standards of Due Process protect both individuals and institutions from being deprived of "life, liberty, or property" --- or even reputation ---without a fair opportunity to confront the accuser, to demand actual proof, and to present evidence in one's defense. This protects innocent people from being vilified or punished.

The time lapse between the alleged offenses and the investigation renders the ordinary mechanisms of justice either unenforceable or limited in scope.

That's the bitter truth. Let the innocent be free of the smear of collective guilt. Let those for whom incriminating evidence exists, be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And let those whose guilt is unprovable fear the judgment to come.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

(no documentary evidence)

Did you even bother to read the article?

Wednesday's five-volume report on the probe ? which was resisted by Catholic religious orders ? concluded that church officials shielded their orders' pedophiles from arrest amid a culture of self-serving secrecy..

Five volumes of evidence.

"For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." -- Isaiah 26:21

---

"Cast thy burden upon the LORD, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.

But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee." -- Psalm 55:22-23