Posted on 03/30/2009 10:00:24 AM PDT by mockingbyrd
A pregnant woman, her husband and their three-year-old son were killed in a house fire early yesterday as police who arrived before the fire brigade prevented neighbours from trying to save them. The woman screamed: “Please save my kids” from a bedroom window and neighbours tried to help but were beaten back by flames and were told by police not to attempt a rescue.
By the time firefighters got into the house in Doncaster, Michelle Colly, 25, her husband, Mark, 29, and son, Louis, 3, were dead. Their daughter, Sophie, 5, was taken to hospital and believed to be critically ill.
Davey Davis, 38, a friend of the family, said: “It was the most harrowing thing I have ever witnessed. Michelle was at the bedroom window yelling, ‘Please save my kids’ and we wanted to help but the police were pushing us back and not allowing us near. We were willing to risk our lives to save those kiddies but the police wouldn’t let us.
(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...
PLUS the child who died in his/her mother’s womb!!
Dang, why do they always leave out the babies?!?
Prayers going up for the little girl who survived. What a sad story. :*(
Those useless cops should be tried for negligent homicide.
I would have told one to kill me because I’d be too busy knocking them down to run in and save that family.
There is absolutely no excuse for this. They should lose their badges, and rot in a jail cell.
I'm sure the neighbors were upset and frustrated that the cops did this, but it is their job to do so in such situations.
Terrible tragedy. Prayers going up for the loved ones of those who are deceased.
This is a poorly written article. There are some missing facts, which is typical of an article not written to pass along news - this one was specifically written to evoke a strong emotional response against the police.
For example, were there iron bars on the windows that prevented the police from entering? Or are we suppose that the policement, who are sworn to protect’ are really just select group sadistic Nazi torturers who thoroughly enjoyed watching a family burn to death?
Are we to suppose that no policeman made an attempt to resuce the family? That their sole purpose of going to this fire was to satisfy some evil desire to see a family die horribly.
Granted, there are a few (emphasis on few) policemen that are a mockery to the uniform they wear, but most are not like that. I submit that most of the policemen would have risked their lives to save the family - if it were possible to do so. I do not believe they sat there and patiently waited for people to burn to death, doing nothing but preventing would-be rescuers from action.
True.
Also is the neighbors job to ignore them, IMHO. I wasn't there, but it sounds like the neighbors didn't try too hard. Further, assuming that firefighters were not on the scene yet - all of the police that I know would have been looking for ways to help instead of worrying about crowd control.
For all of the gloom-and-doom on FR about how America is going to hell in a handbasket, I'd submit that the alternatives to the US are far worse.
“I do not believe they sat there and patiently waited for people to burn to death, doing nothing but preventing would-be rescuers from action.”
Then you do not believe exactly what an eyewitness reported.
“Another resident, who asked not to be named, added: “There were lads with aluminium ladders who wanted to get to them but the police were shouting, ‘Stay away, get out of the yard.’ They were saying, ‘You have got to wait until the fire brigade gets here.’”
Those cops would have had to shoot my neighbors and me. There’s no way anyone in our neighborhood would let somebody burn in their home while there was the slightest chance of getting them out. God gave me this life to do good, and if I want to risk it by running into a burning building to save a kid I am damned well going to do so.
I fully understand your sentiment, but I must disagree.
I’m a firefighter in Texas. We will gladly take calculated risks for the possibility of saving a life. If there is a chance that we can save someone, we will go in.
However, we are highly trained and have supporting equipment (turnout gear, air supply, entry tools, etc), as well as a team of professionals to support us. We train for this specific type of event, and are fully conversant in the necessary techniques. Even with those tools and that training, it is very, very difficult to find people in a smoke-filled home. It is physically and mentally demanding. Most people do not have the physical conditioning to do it. That’s why we train so hard and so often. To get an idea of what the inside of a burning building actually looks like, do a YouTube search of “Firefighter helmet cam” and watch some of those videos.
When we search a home for people, we usually use up a lot of our air just finding them. Once we find a victim, we have to decide the best way to move them - should we pull them out, or call in a fresh crew to remove them? Either way - if we know there are three victims, and we’ve only found one, we know there are still two more we have to go find. Even if they’re in the same room, just a few feet apart, it can be difficult to find them all. In our methodology (some jurisdictions are different), we require at least 2 firefighters per victim (we don’t go into a burning building alone). If there are 3 victims, we’ll probably need 6-9 firefighters just to get them out. Usually, we’ll need more than that, because the initial crews will become exhausted after long searches, and start running low on air. (Remember: We’re also wearing about 45 lbs of gear, and carrying another 5-15 lbs of tools...and our turnout gear feels like a full-body parka lined with a raincoat, being worn in an oven).
Now, if those police officers hadn’t stopped the neighbors from going in, here’s what would have happened (I’m assuming the building is 30% - 40% involved at this point):
Within 1 minute (probably within 30-40 seconds), the “rescuers” would have been overcome by toxic smoke and heat. Since there is typically zero visibility inside a well-burning structure, they’d be blind, and their eyes, lungs, mouth and nose would be stinging and burning. Every breath would bring on panic and pain. It would be like breathing boiling pepper spray. Without proper search training, they’d be lost and disoriented almost immediately. Smoke-induced hypoxia (low levels of oxygen in your brain) would cloud their thinking. They would pass out or die where they dropped, never having reached the victims.
So, when the fire department showed up, they would have to decide if they could reasonably enter the home to retrieve the victims. Only now, they also have “rescuers” to retrieve. The “rescuers” will be between the firefighters and the victims, so they would be found first. Remember, you tie up at least two firefighters per victim. It will typically take 3-5 minutes to extract one adult. Our air bottles usually last 10-20 minutes when we’re working hard. Lugging dead-weight adults through a burning building is grueling, so we use up our air and energy faster. If only 3 “rescuers” went in, they’ve tied up 4-6 firefighters, for up to 15 minutes. I will almost guarantee that the original victims have died by that point.
All victims pulled out of a building must be evaluated by EMS. Typically, two medics or EMTs will work a victim, and each ambulance typically has only those two people. How many ambulances will we need to evaluate and treat 6 victims vs 3 victims? If this home was not in a large city, how long do you think it would take to get those extra ambulances to the scene? Assuming any rescuers and victims were found alive, any time, personnel, material or ambulance space taken up by a rescuer is a resource that will be denied to one of the original victims.
The police officers did the right thing. As hard as it is to swallow, those police officers saved lives and should be commended. I know that flies in the face of what you are feeling - and almost everyone would agree with you. But for the safety of the victims, the rescuers and the firefighters, the cops did the right thing.
Here’s another point. Most jurisdictions have manning issues. It’s just hard to put enough people on a fire within the first 15 minutes. Remember: Almost all jobs require 2-4 firefighters - never less than 2, sometimes more than 4. Each engine or truck typically carries 3-5 firefighters, including the officer. In the first 15 minutes, firefighters MUST: 1) put water on the fire, 2) search for victims (at least one crew for each floor), 3) ventilate the building (a must for safety and putting the fire out), and 4) have a RIT team formed (this is a team of firefighters that will rescue downed firefighters). These are the absolute minimums. More victims means more firefighters searching, which means there are fewer firefighters doing the other “must” jobs. The longer the fire burns, and the longer the building remains unventilated, the worse the odds are that the victims will be found alive. It also makes the jobs of the searching firefighters much harder, and much, much more dangerous.
Please, please, please: Do NOT enter a burning building to rescue anyone. I know it’s frustrating to stand and watch, and your protective instincts scream at you to do something. But you will only make our job harder, and pose a further danger to the victims you’re trying to save.
Having not been there and assessed the situation myself, I could not reach such a conclusion. More than likely the police assessed that anyone who entered the dwelling would simple add to the list victims.
Unless you believe that cops are cold blooded killers who enjoy listening to a family burn to death.
And yes if a cop ordered me not to enter a dwelling to rescue someone and I assessed that I could do it with reasonable safely, I would simply ignore him.
The article cited mentioned the people at the windows, and neighbors with ladders attempting to reach said windows. While I would agree with you regarding building entry, to prevent an attempt by ladder from the outside sounds positively unacceptable.
They should have jumped. If you got in there, what would you do? Convince them to leave? It seems to me they already vetoed that idea.
I re-read the article. There was mention of flames from the lower floors preventing the ladders being placed. However, at one point, folks were certainly willing to attempt rescue by ladder.
“...to prevent an attempt by ladder from the outside sounds positively unacceptable.”
lol...I KNEW someone would bring that up - but I’d already written so much, I didn’t want to address it in my previous post.
If you are going to try a rescue, that would be the way to go. At least you’re easier to get to if something goes wrong.
However, I still can’t recommend it.
While an external ladder rescue isn’t nearly as dangerous as an internal search, some of the same principles apply. I’ll assume that the would-be rescuers are physically fit enough to climb the ladder, since they carried them to the scene and were willing to put them up.
Do we know the weight limit of the ladder? Many home-use ladders top out at 250-300 lbs, which may or may not be enough in this situation. If you’re holding a 75 lb child in your arms, 15’ up, and the ladder catastrophically fails, you’re both in a world of hurt.
What if mom panics and throws her child to the rescuer? Could the rescuer safely catch and hold the child, and remain on the ladder?
Would the rescuer be able to safely bring the victims down the ladder? This sounds trite, but it is much more challenging than you might think, if the victim is confused, hysterical, injured, or unconscious.
There is still some danger involved. If the rescuer slips, they will likely injure themselves and the victim. This will again take EMS resources away from the victim.
By definition, the ladder will be set up within the “collapse zone”. Pieces of the building can and usually will come loose during a fire. This creates quite a hazard for people working close to the exterior of the building. Would the rescuer be able to keep their cool and do the job if a 2x3’ piece of flaming tar paper fell on their head and shoulders?
Most people would weigh these disadvantages, and proceed with the rescue attempt. The odds are with you on this type of rescue, and our human condition pretty much demands it (especially with children involved). Things would have to go very, very wrong for this to not be a better option than leaving the victims inside to burn.
That said, it’s still much more dangerous than most would think, and fire departments still wouldn’t recommend it. Every victim you add to the equation makes our job much harder, ties up resources, and delays rescue of any victims that weren’t rescued.
Also - when we know there are victims inside, and we know what room they’re most probably in, we can usually get to them within 3-5 minutes of our arrival. You may not be saving much time with your ladder rescue, and you may be getting in our way if we’re going to use a ladder.
Saving lives is always our number 1 priority. If we believe there is a reasonable chance of saving someone, we will make every effort to do so - even at the calculated risk of our own lives. Firefighters are just normal people, with all of the same feelings and drives you have. We really, really don’t want to leave people in a burning building.
I understand all of what you mentioned. None of us knows for certain the actual situation these folks faced. It’s tragic that only the daughter survived.
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