Posted on 12/16/2008 4:19:57 PM PST by briarbey b
“So, do you believe that a person who was born overseas to American parents would be a natural born citizen and eligible to be president?”
All things being equal... Yes.
BOTH Parents.
... And ‘born overseas’ doesn’t mean taking an oath of allegiance to a foreign country that would REQUIRE one (for example) to give up one’s American citizenship.
Again, it would be helpful if Obama would come forth with his vital records.
What is he hiding?
STE=Q
That is an unsubstantiated Internet rumor.
His website posted a fraudulent Certification of Live Birth (not a Certificate of Live Birth)
Another unsubstantiated Internet rumor. The physical certificate was examined by numerous media outlets. The only person who claims it's fraudulent is an anonymous freeper with phony a PhD in a discipline that doesn't exist.
Furthermore, state officials in Hawaii verified he was born in Hawaii.
And before you jump all over me about their only having verified that they have his birth certificate on record, I will note the Hawaii Department of public health later verified unequivocally that yes, he was born in a Hawaii.
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html
He has posted a Selective Service Registration that is dubious. That is evidence.
There is nothing dubious about it, the opinions of anonymous bloggers with phony degrees notwithstanding.
He has refused to release his school and medical records.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Columbia University verifies that he graduated and spent two years thereafter having transferred from Occidental. What exactly do you want from them? His transcript? How is any of this possibly related to him being qualified to serve as president ?
As to medical records, I hardly see what that has to do with his being qualified to serve as president.
Maybe because he had to legally apply as a foreign student because he was legally a foreign student?
That's absurd. Not even the craziest of lawsuits filed against him is alleging he's not a citizen. They're just alleging he's not a natural-born citizen, which is relevant to the presidency, but it's not relevant to his being able to attend college as a US citizen.
All he has to do is provide the required documentation and this will end. He has spent almost $1 million fighting it. That is suspicious. Don't you agree?
It would be suspicious if it were true. The problem is it's not. These phantom amounts of money he's allegedly spending, like just about everything else you've posted, have turned out to be unsubstantiated Internet rumors.
“it may be wise to sue the State Department to force them to release a Obama BC issued by the US Embassy.”
I’m not a lawyer but under what grounds would one sue the State Department?
How would such a suit be constructed?
Are you a lawyer?
I’m going to bed now but looking forward to your answer.
STE=Q
Sure. Got a reputable source for that?
In which foreign state do you allege that he obtains naturalization?
This might help...long but informative...see Argument section:
Smmary Of Arguments
December 10, 2008
Broe v. Reed
Washington State Supreme Court
Cause No. 8-2-473-8
[…]
Many of the cases challenging Sen. Obama’s citizenship status have been dismissed for “lack of standing.” Plaintiffs in Broe v. Reed claim standing pursuant to the authorization given them by the legislature of Washington in RCW 29A.68.020(2). This statute creates standing for Plaintiffs to challenge the election of a candidate who has been elected but was ineligible at the time of his election to run for the office.
[...]
Federal Law, Article II, Section I of the United States Constitution provides: No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
[…]
ARGUMENTS
Barack Obama is ineligible for the office of the presidency because he is not a “natural born citizen” of the United States.
Article II, Section I of the United States Constitution provides:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. “Natural born citizen” means a person born in the United States to parents that were both citizens, and to children born out of the United States to parents that were both citizens, provided that no citizenship would be allowed for a person whose father was not a resident of the United States. Act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, First Congress, Sess. II, Chapter 3, Section I, approved March 26, 1790, 1 Stat. 103.\
Compare with the Fourteenth Amendment: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. “Natural born citizens” continues to mean a person born in the United States to parents that were both citizens, and arguably to people born outside of the United States to parents who were both citizens, provided that the father was a resident of the United States. The Amendment also provides that persons “naturalized” and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens [not “natural born citizens”].
THEREFORE, at the time of the Fourteenth Amendment, you were either a “natural born citizen” or, if you had citizenship, it was obtained through a process of naturalization, as established by federal Acts of Naturalization, Immigration and Nationality. A child born overseas, of an American citizen and a foreign national is not a “natural born citizen,” and the child’s citizenship can only be established by a process of naturalization.
A child born in the United States of an American citizen and a foreign national is also not a “natural born citizen” if the child obtained citizenship of another nation automatically at the time of his birth.
The British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): “Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent [italics added] if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth [italics added].” The legislative history of the phrase “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” meant, according to the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment, exclusive jurisdiction. A subject of the British Crown, for instance, could claim that jurisdiction was proper only under the Crown.
Barack Obama has failed to establish that he is an American citizen. Barack Obama readily admits the following facts: 1. He was born in 1961. 2. His mother was an American citizen. 3. His father was a Kenyan citizen.
To establish American citizenship, Sen. Obama must prove one of two things:
1. He was born on American soil, and was not subject to any other jurisdiction;
2. He was naturalized pursuant to the immigration laws of the United States.
At the time of his birth, he was automatically a British citizen, pursuant to the The British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5). Consequently, the United States did not have exclusive jurisdiction, and he is disqualified from automatic citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. He has failed to demonstrate that he was actually born in Hawaii.
Barack Obama has submitted the following to establish his birth in Hawaii:
1. A Certification of Live Birth (not a Certificate of Live Birth) purportedly from the state of Hawaii;
2. The affidavit of an Hawaiian official who claims that he has seen a “birth certificate.”
While these may be legally sufficient to register a birth in Hawaii, neither is sufficient to establish that he was born on American soil.
Hawaii, under HRS 338-17.8 allows for the registration of births to parents who gave birth while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii [emphasis added] and who declare the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.
Because HRS 338-17.8 exists, a Certification of Live Birth in the form provided by Barack Obama is insufficient to establish native birth. Instead, he must produce a Certificate of Live Birth, which sets forth his name, his mother’s name, his father’s name, the hospital where he was born, the attending physician, and which includes his mother’s signature, the attending physician’s signature, and the signature of another witness.
As a matter of law, there is no official Hawaiian “birth certificate” – there is only the Certification of Live Birth, and the Certificate of Live Birth.
As of the present moment, Barack Obama has not produced a single piece of evidence demonstrating that he was born on U.S. soil. Even his birth announcement in the Hawaiian press is inconclusive, given that he was born in August of 1961, and the article was published in August, 1962, and at that time, his father was already back in Kenya.
Corroborating evidence as to his birth and citizenship allegiances could be established by the production of his passport, and his college transcripts, none of which can be obtained because Barack Obama has hired several law firms to make sure that such records remained sealed.
In the meantime, informal polling of the hospitals in Hawaii have received responses from all of the hospitals in Honolulu reporting that they have no records for Stanley Ann Dunham, Barack’s mother, or Barack Hussein Obama. On the other side of the world, however, Barack’s paternal grandmother has stated that she was present at his birth in the Coastal Hospital of Mombasa, Kenya. The Kenyan Ambassador to the United States has said that a memorial is being placed at the site of Barack Obama’s birth in Mombasa, Kenya.
In addition, because Barack Obama was adopted by his mother’s second husband, Lolo Soetoro, he obtained Indonesian citizenship as well. Because of his multiple citizenships, Barack Obama does not have automatic citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Barack Obama has never demonstrated that he was naturalized as an American citizen, which requires a residency period, a test, and an oath of allegiance.
Barack Obama is not qualified under 8 U.S.C. §1401(g). In 1986, Congress amended the statute, replacing the phrase “ten years, at least five” with “five years, at least two.” Pub. L. No. 99-653, § 12, 100 Stat. 3655 (1986), now codified at 8 U.S.C.§ 1401(g). The 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act also replaced the “residence” requirement, found in the earlier Nationality Act of 1940, with a requirement of “physical presence” for transmission of citizenship to a child born abroad. See Drozd, v. Immigration and Naturalization Service, 155 F.3d 871 at 87( 2nd Cir.1998) (citing to the Nationality Act of 1940, ch.876, § 201(g), 54 Stat. 1137, 1139). That change in language “compel[s] a strict adherence to the plain terms of the Act.” Id. Further, the change from “ten years, at least five” years to “five years at least two” applies only to those born after 1986. U.S. v. Flores-Villar, 497 F. Supp. 2d 1160, 1162-64 (S.D. Cal. 2007) aff’d, 536 F.3d 990 (9th Cir. 2008). The amendment had no retroactive application that would change the legal analysis for Senator Obama.
Barack Obama did not qualify for automatic citizenship under the INA of 1952. Barack’s mother gave birth at age 18. The INA of 1952 simply disqualified children that were born to mothers who were less than 19 because of the five years of continuous residency requirement after age 14. Because Sen. Obama has not established that he was born in the United States, he cannot claim automatic citizenship, and can only establish his citizenship by means of naturalization (process described above). There is no record of Barack ever naturalizing as an American citizen.
BARACK OBAMA HAS NEVER ESTABLISHED THAT HE IS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. Barack Obama did not run under his legal name Barack Hussein Obama is not the legal name of the candidate, and Sen. Obama has failed to produce any evidence of a legal name change from Barry Soetoro to Barack Hussein Obama. Sometime in the 1960’s, Barack was adopted by Lolo Soetoro, and obtained the legal name Barry Soetoro and Indonesian citizenship. When a person is adopted, a new birth certificate issues in the name of the adopted father, establishing the legal name of the child in the name of the father, and establishing the citizenship of the child in the citizenship of the father. Barack Obama has never produced a single piece of evidence demonstrating a legal name change from his adopted name Barry Soetoro to his name at birth, Barack Hussein Obama. Obama is in direct violation of Washington statute RCW 29A.24.060(3), which provides that “no candidate may . . use a nickname designed intentionally to mislead voters.” Barack Obama’s candidacy is a violation of WAC 434-215-012, which requires that declarations of candidacy contain the following affirmation:
I declare that this information is, to the best of my knowledge, true. I also swear, or affirm, that I will support the Constitution and laws of the United States and the Constitution and laws of the State of Washington. Senator Obama either failed to sign such a document, or has misled the Secretary of State as to the affirmation in paragraph 2 of the required Declaration of Candidacy which declares that “and, at the time of filing this declaration, I am legally qualified to assume office if elected.”
There are two types of citizen: natural born and naturalized. All those catagories describe natural born citizens. They are BORN into a condition of citizenship by definition hence are natural born.
Congress can rule that the electoral votes cast for an ineligible candidate cannot be counted.
Are you talking about the video clip where she calls him the "son" of her village? I've seen it too. She doesn't say he was born in Kenya.
No, one person claimed that what another person said meant that. The other person didn't say that. It would have been easy enough to do. Instead, she was very elliptical.
She's an offical spokeswoman for the Hawaii department of public health. Are you seriously suggesting that the entire Hawaii department of public health is involved in an elabroate conspiracy to hide a foreign birth?
then can, but they wont.
Drudge had an intersting post today about there having been 3 senators under the constitutional age requirment in the past, and they were allowed to serve. The constitution has been thrown out the window a long, ong, time ago.that is why we are where we are today
Excellent post. There are some things I will dispute tomorrow.
A Natural Born Citizen is what Barack Hussein Obama ISN'T!
The first ILLEGITIMATE Black Illegal Alien Anchor Baby President.
Welcome to FR!
STE=Q
save for later
If Obama was born in Kenya, the State Department has documentation that would prove that fact.
File suit to force State to disclose the DS-1350.
BTTT.BKMRK
The "anonymous freeper" (you use Freeper with such disdain, what's up with that?) Ron Polarik. If you don't know who he is how can you attest that his credentials are phony?
Do not think me rude if I don't take the word of an unknown state bureaucrat speaking for someone else. I would like a neutral party to examine it and make judgment. Sen. McCain produced his, why not barry? BTW "annenberg fact check.org" is hardly a disinterested party. They were all but a branch office of his campaign.
I find his SSR to be problematic. Who is this anonymous blogger with the fake degree?
As to his school records it would show whether he was registered as a foreign student and I'd also like to know what he studied and his grades.
So obama is not fighting the lawsuits?
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