You once again further show your ignorance of our beliefs by stating that “It's a near-universalism where just about everybody will have their own kingdom.” Not everyone will have their own kingdom, although everyone will be put into a kingdom dependent upon their works as described in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 where the Lord clearly talks about the Resurrection unto those three kingdoms, but they will not necessarily be their own kingdom. You were a member, & you don't know this basic principle? Maybe that's why you fell away, you never knew the basic tenants of the gospel.
As far as the grace vs. works issue is concerned, how do you explain Matt. 25:31-46?
31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Now, here the Lord is talking about the judgment. He talks about the sheep on His right who have done WORKS unto their fellow men & they would “inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”. Then, He talks about the goats & how they had not done WORKS unto their fellow man, “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”.
Both the sheep & the goats BELIEVED in the Lord, but only those that did the WORKS unto their fellow man received life eternal. Where does He say here that as long as one believes, it doesn't matter what works you do for your fellow man, His grace alone will be sufficient for life eternal & to inherit the kingdom prepared for them?
Let's now turn to Titus 1:16.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
He says “They profess that they know God”, in other words, they have faith in Him, but then He says, “but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”. How did they DENY Him? IN WORKS!
Again, explain how grace trumps works according to the Lord IN HIS OWN WORDS in these scriptures.
Of course, these are just 2 of a myriad of scriptures I could/have cited to you that talk about the import of works in relation to the final judgment. These would seem very clear to me & many others here I presume. You obviously have a very different opinion. I would ask once again, why is your opinion the correct one & mine wrong, & how do you know definitively? Certainly you can see there are scriptures that contradict your assertions.
(He's channeling DU! ;^)
Listen, if I had meant this the way you interpreted it, (and then you could have chastised me for it), it would have come out as "everybody will have their own planet." (I didn't say that...'cause I know LDS don't believe that)
I specificially said "kingdom" -- as in "degrees thereof":
From the official LDS Web site: Telestial Kingdom: The lowest of the three degrees or kingdoms of glory in heaven. The scriptures compare the glory of the telestial kingdom to the glory of the stars.
So, here even your own church body compares the (made-up) "telestial kingdom" to stars plural, yet you "bop" me as being "ignorant." I ask you, if I said, "When you go home at night..." (even if you rent), do you respond, "It's not my own home?" (No) People consider where they live as their "own" home -- even if they are renters. If they do that now, how much more so re: their after-life residence?
Titus 1:16...in works they deny him
Let me ask you something: If you are married (or plan on getting married), did a laundry list of good works justify yourself as the one to marry to your spouse? (Was "good works" the primary quality that your spouse saw in you as being marriage-able...or if it hasn't happened, yet, is this what you think single women (assuming you're a man) are looking for in a partner?
In both passages you cited, Titus 1:16 and in Matt. 25, the works done by men either denied God as their Lord, (in Matthew 25, it was denial by omission). In Titus 1:16, what were they guilty of? (being abominable, and disobedient...) Now, apply that to a man who is, say, living with a woman, "pretending" to be her "husband." Let's say this "cohabiter" is both abominable and unfaithful. Does not his unfaithfulness alone disqualify him as being a "husband?" -- even if they were married?
You see, it wasn't his "good works" or even his "faithfulness" that qualified him as being her husband. (After all, I said he was her "cohabiter" -- but being a faithful cohabiter doesn't make you "married")
You see, works justify our faith just as intercourse consummates our marriage. In other words, our faith gives us the RIGHT to accomplish godly works in His strength. (And the Holy Spirit living in us, His temple, gives us the power/energy).
Works no more procure faith or salvific faith anymore than intercourse procures marriage. In fact, the act without a proper relationship is rejected by God! Yet, historically, LDS advocate salvation by works (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. I, p. 134).
Even the Book of Mormon shows very clearly that works do not save (2 Nephi 2:4; 26:25, 27; Ether 12:8,33).
And this has been long the message of the Bible: John 6:28-29; Rom. 3:28. Are we justified in God's eyes via works of the law? Paul says "no" (Gal. 5:4; Rom. 3:20; 1 Cor. 6:11).
As for Matthew 25, you assume that it was only their good works or lack of them that shaped them into "goats" and "sheep." (May I suggest another way of looking at that?) The sheep did was they did because they belonged to the Shepherd's fold, heard His voice, followed His lead, and fed and clothed and visited as He led them. In other words, they were already sheep! The goats, on the other hand, were fiercely independent -- as goats are -- ate what they wanted, and heard no voice to follow. Goats acted goat-like because they were...well, goats.
Whatever we were created as, we follow that nature (goats). Whatever we were re-created as, we follow that supernature (Sheep). Goats aren't goats because they act in a goat-like way; they are goatlike because they are goats. (The same with sheep). You keep putting the attention on the outward behavior; but the way we behave is tied to who we ARE inwardly! (by nature, and by a new nature)
In flocks & folds, goats in Jesus' day mixed in with the sheep. Now I suppose a goat might have thought they were just as sheepish as the rest, but goatlike behavior would give such pretension away.
Finally, while you keep saying I'm not dealing with good works in my response posts, I have repeatedly done so -- ultimately, because you cannot separate "works" from God's grace. Let me give you the best Scriptural example:
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (John 6:28)
Reno, you can't get any better "works" going than work[in'] the works of God, can you? (No!) They were askin' Jesus, "Bro, how can we get doin' what God's doin' so that we might work His work?"
Now how did Jesus respond? Did He give them all the things you'll find on a temple recommend list that your bishop goes over with ya? (No)
Verse 29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Believe in Me. That's it. Not only that, He went even much further. Jesus didn't say, "Do this work: Believe in Me." He said even this belief wasn't man's work, but rather it was God's work!!! (Later in this chapter, John 6:44, He said that no man could come to the Father unless the Father drew him...only sheep would hear his voice and be so drawn).
The sixth chapter of this book isn't the only important sixth chapter in the NT. Another one is Romans 6. So before I cite one verse from there, I want to wish you and other LDS a very merry Christmas...and as I do this, my wish and prayer for you is that you would consider all your past Christmases.
Think of your parents.
Think of you yourself if you are one.
Think of the gifts given, and how love and grace were the only motivators of parents.
No strings attached.
No expectations of tit-for-tat returns.
No laundry list of "good works" necessary to be accepted as children.
Think of the sheer purity they/you have had in giving these gifts.
Now just apply that same purity, love and grace to our Heavenly Father as you read this verse:
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
Merry Christmas, Reno! Merry Christmas, LDSaints -- God loves you just as you are, accepts you just as you are, gives you eternal life now just as you are, relates to you just as you are...and out of your sheer (future) returned love for Him -- no "merit" points, no "worthiness" bonuses, no temple recommend checklist -- you return that love in the form of "good works" and obedience...just as you would act for your spouse. We do love-based good things for our spouse because we are married; we don't do them to be accepted by him/her.
And the Bible consistenly points to our relationship with the Lamb...from Isaiah to the gospels to the Corinthians to Revelation...as one of a Bridegroom of the Lamb wed to His bride, the church.