Posted on 08/15/2008 7:26:30 AM PDT by chickadee
And those conflicts are especially pernicious when an attempt is made to either apply a group identity (in some instances) or extinguish a group identity (in other instances) by force of arms. There is literally nothing Georgia President Saakashvili could do or can do to make the Ossetians feel Georgian against their will and despite their pre-existing sense of identity. Nothing except bloodshed or centuries can accomplish that. One people cannot vote for another people to surrender their sense of self. Artificially invented imaginary lines on a geo-political map do not create identities--shared experience does--language, religion, geography, history. There's nothing especially moral or immoral about any of those aspects of the human condition. We all speak one language or another, we're all churched or un-churched to one degree or another, we all live someplace and we all situate ourselves in a history of one sort or another.I do not know why the Ossetians have the sense of identity they do, and I don't really care why. I just know that they do. Same for the Georgians, same for the Russians. Evidently, the Ossetians draw their sense of self in part in contradistinction to their neighboring Georgians (not, by the way, an especially unusual phenomena in human history). Thus, twice given the choice in plebiscites in the last 16 years, both times the South Ossetians voted overwhelming for separation from Georgia. They prefer Russia to Georgia. Again, don't ask me why, I don't know because I'm not Ossetian.
(Excerpt) Read more at jfxgillis.newsvine.com ...
You know what would be really awesome? If you banned making Hitler analogies, then opened up concentration camps and gas chambers for people who violate your ban.
That would be killer.
You know, I am a solid Conservative and have supported President Bush all the way in his efforts against global terrorism, up to and including Iraq to this day.
I really don’t appreciate being called a Commie or a Russia lover for expressing a point of view not in acccord with your own.
I might as well post at one of the nasty lefty sites if this is the way you treat one of your own kind.
Couldn’t agree more, perhaps its time some people go back to the history books and read up a little. Russia’s actions, including their propaganda and excuses of protecting Russian Nationals is identical to both the Rhineland and Sudetenland takeovers by Germany. Some people need to read up on history a little.
As to the Georgia invaded Georgia comment, perhaps some people should get their news from places other than the Kos or Huffpo.
Putin could care less. He has shown a willingess to turn off the oil and natural gas spigots for those who oppose him in Ukrain and Czechoslovokia. He'd do the same in an instant for Germany and Poland.
You have to allow facts to intrude into your opinions from time to time.
It appears you read the article in question and didn't grasp diddly about the implications.
The west has to work to negate Putin's new leverage or else he will just keep consuming back the former Soviet Empire. And it doesn't help when there are folks like you running around who are more than willing to lap up the propaganda that the Russians are serving.
On the night of Thursday, Aug. 7, forces of the Republic of Georgia drove across the border of South Ossetia, a secessionist region of Georgia that has functioned as an independent entity since the fall of the Soviet Union. The forces drove on to the capital, Tskhinvali, which is close to the border. Georgian forces got bogged down while trying to take the city. In spite of heavy fighting, they never fully secured the city, nor the rest of South Ossetia.
It's not that you expressed a point of view different than mine. It's that you have blindly and uncritically lapped up Russian propaganda.
I might as well post at one of the nasty lefty sites if this is the way you treat one of your own kind.
If this thread is any indication, methinks you'd find more kindred souls on the subject of Russia's invasion of Georgia over there. DU laps up anti-American propaganda and asks for seconds.
I think you misunderstand me. I am not taking Russia’s “side”. I think it is too soon to be shouting about whose “side” we are on. This situation will only get worse if both sides keep bellowing threats and issuing ultimatums. Then it gets into a face-saving situation that can cost a lot of little people their lives and property.
This kind of situation requires calm diplomacy out of the media glare.
You just complete GUTTED your 'lets not call Putin Hitler' argument.
The inhabitants of the Sudetenland, Hitler said, were predominantly German, and these three million Sudeten Germans deserved-what else?-the right of self-determination and a destiny separate from the other seven million inhabitants of Czechoslovakia; this despite the fact that the country was a democracy and that the Sudeten Germans enjoyed economic prosperity and full civil rights.
Self-determination - that was EXACTLY the argument Hitler used for the Sudetenland. BWAHAHAHAHA!
The ghost of Neville Chamberlain apparantly has gone condo in your braincase.
Just so I am clear on what you have to say - I have been a member of FR for 10 years, but I am only welcome to express my point of view if it coincides with yours?
Or what? What happens if I don’t agree with you?
I ask again: why have the vast majority of Ossetians, who live in Russian North Ossetia never asserted any claim of self-determination? Why only the tiny handful of Ossetians living in Georgian South Ossetia?
And why do these South Ossetians claim Russian nationality if they truly believe in self-determination?p>The answer is obvious to anyone who is not busy fellating Vladimir Putin: the "South Ossetian Independence Movement" is a fiction invented by Russia to gain control of the Caucasus.
You yet again sidestep the issue - you UNCRITICALLY accepted Russian propaganda to reach your point of view.
Or what? What happens if I don’t agree with you?
Well, in this situation, I'd say you should stop shootign yourself in the foot. You have completely undermined your own arguments with the combination of blind acceptance of Russian propaganda and a Hitler-esque call for the 'right' of South Ossetians to self-determination. I'd be more concerned about how you are coming across on this thread with that kind of posting.
Um, it’s you that doesn’t seem to get it. When the U.S. bombed Kosovo, what was their goal? To allow the Kosovars the right to govern their own territory. Lots of lies were told about mass graves etc. Do we want to be manipulated into that sort of situation again?
I’m all for letting the Europeans have a whack at this before we start flexing all over the place.
That’s where you’re wrong. I haven’t read any Russian propaganda. I did a lot of research on my own after the contretemps escalated. The Georgians have a long history of annexing their neighbors. Their current President is full of himself. He was warned not to employ force and did so anyway. He took a gamble because he thinks he has powerful friends who will put themselves on the line for him.
I think this situation can be resolved relatively peacefully if everyone isn’t determined to make Putin some kind of Super Bogeyman and wait to see if diplomatic pressure/censure cause him to back off.
Some people remind me of the man who uses a hammer to fix everything. Some things call for a fine laser to be repaired correctly.
First of all, I was against the Kosovo invasion at the time and still think it was a mistake. We took the wrong side in a civil war. But Clintonistas are prone to do that. But at the end of the day, Kosovo was a sideshow. We had no vital interests there.<
The Russian claim that 2,000 Ossetians were killed has been debunked. Confirmed death toll is a dozen or so from an article posted elsewhere.
Georgia, unlike Kosovo, is a key strategic ally. It is the corridor for planes flying military supplies from Europe to Afghanistan. It is allowing pipelines to be built to help break Putin's stanglehold on Caspian Oil.
Putin has shown himself to be a tyrant. He needs to be opposed in contrast to the way Hitler was not. If you can't grasp that subtlety and just try to treat this issue like Kosovo, I can't help you.
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