Beam me to Planet Gore !
Posted on 08/03/2008 1:59:42 PM PDT by kathsua
Perhaps it would clarify the wind issue if some basic facts were understood. The term is WECS: Wind Energy Conversion Systems, not "farms," "ranches," or "parks." The structures are industrial-scale turbines.
WECS will produce small amounts of energy with an efficiency range averaging 35 percent at most locations. WECS in Kansas in operation or under construction have the ability to produce 1,014 megawatts of electricity at maximum production; less than a quarter of that electricity stays in Kansas.
WECS will not replace conventional coal, gas or nuclear plants, because wind energy is intermittent, unpredictable, unreliable and expensive and cannot be stored in commercial quantities.
WECS will not reduce our consumption of oil. Three percent of oil is used nationwide and 1 percent is used in Kansas for "peaking" periods when electricity is in high demand and wind cannot be counted on.
WECS will pay money to very few landowners. Elk River benefits four landowners; only one is local.
WECS will transfer massive amounts of taxpayer dollars to wind developers and owners, 65 percent nationwide are foreign; 14 out of the 17 in Kansas are foreign owned. Benefits include PTC (Production Tax Credits), rapid depreciation schedules and electricity sales.
Iberdrola of Spain, owner of Elk River, realized over $9.9 million in PTC allowances in 2007. Foreign companies are not regulated by the Kansas Corporation Commission. There are no state or federal regulations of any kind on WECS. Few Kansas counties have wind regulations.
WECS will force consumers to pay for their electricity three times: to build the WECS, build conventional power as backup, and additional transmission lines to carry power from the WECS to the grid.
WECS will not produce large economic benefits to a community as evidenced by records from Gray County (Montezuma), or Butler County (Elk River). Elk River has produced seven jobs. Most employees live outside the community. Construction crews and vehicles were from out of state.
WECS will pay most counties PILOT payments (Payment in Lieu of Taxes). Considered a "gift" to the county, a "payment without consideration," it is not legally enforceable.
WECS will be totally tax-exempt in Kansas unless the current law is changed. WECS will not substantially reduce greenhouse gas, since conventional plants kept in "spinning reserve" to take up slack when wind dies are less efficient.
WECS will contribute to the division and disruption of communities. Riley, Geary, Wabaunsee, Morris, Chase, Butler, Lincoln, Ellsworth, and Ellis counties have all experienced community division involving a wind project. Projects have disrupted communities, split neighbors and even divided families.
WECS will contribute to the destruction and fragmentation of the last remnants of our prairies and open spaces. Elk River's 8,000 acres of beautiful native prairie are now scarred with 100 turbine foundations, trenching to all turbines and about 22 miles of road. The destruction in progress along I-70 at the Smoky Hills wind complex on 25,000 acres of mixed grass prairie shows how native grasslands are turned into an industrial complex that dominates the horizon.
Few developers or power purchasers care about the destruction of the prairie. The notable exceptions are Westar and KCP&L who have met with conservation groups and landowners before developing in order to locate their projects more responsibly.
The governor has wisely encouraged developers to leave a portion of the Flint Hills undeveloped, but all open grasslands are at risk.
Rose Z. Bacon ranches with her husband, Kent, in the Flint Hills of Morris County. She was a member of the Governor's Wind and Prairie Task Force.
Wind is one of many alternatives.
Wind is not the most dependable.
“You cannot STORE the power.”
There are all sorts of things wrong with wind energy; as the article describes.
However, the energy can be stored. The economics may never be favourable; but the technology is already here. Storage methods include: batteries; storing pressurized air in abandoned gas wells, to generate power with pneumatic motors; and pumping water to reservoirs to generate hydro power, when needed.
Some of the energy can be sent over the grid, to smooth peak demands in different time zones (this is already being done for base load generators).
You cannot STORE wind energy.
Dream on.
Not a chance. Not even 1% of our needs even if there is a windmill on every single hill and sea shore space available. People don't even understand how a windmill's power output is rated. sure, it sounds nice when they say it puts out say for example 10 KW of power, but that means in a 24 hr period, not per hour. In otherwords, that giant sized thing can barely operate a cheap hairdryer.
I can't tell you for sure how to do it, but can give some suggestions.
To start with do an internet search on wind power. I did that the other day just for fun and a lot came up including people who will build and sell a system.
It will not be cheap and may not be worth the investment. However if you did put in a windmill and it generated more than you need at any time it could be sent back into the grid and you might get paid for the excess when that is happening. You would have to check with you local electrid utility on that policy.
In fact checking with your local electric utility might be a way to get a lead for people who deal with windmills.
Yowsa! There will be hell to pay at the Hutchinson News. We’re not used to seeing this kind of blasphemy against our ‘popular, moderate’ governor and her publicity stunts. To outsiders, this just looks like discussion of an issue. To we Kansans, this looks like (dare we hope) a tiny bit of liberation!
Real smart.
Just give me $500 for every $1 bill I give you, save everyone a lot of wasted time.
NYISO makes FPL look like a AA battery, and I have been involved with them for over 20 years on a consultive basis combining output and loads from Hydro Quebec, NYSEG, Niagara Mohawk (NatGrid), Gilboa Blenheim power storage project, and a host of stupid government funded wind farms (Hillary HairCurlers)... Need I continue?
It will be cheaper for everyone to go buy a honda generator and keep pouring gas into it for your power needs.
Nathan, you couldn't be more wrong.
In fact your example is wrong on several levels. First we are not talking about a 10 KW windmill but a 4 MW or even greater, that is 400 times what your example gives. KW is KiloWatts where MW is MegaWatts that's thousands vs millions of watts.
Secondly KW or MW is a measurement of instantaneous power. Your bill is in KWH or killowatt hours which is a power measurement over time.
One of those big windmills will in fact put out a lot of power when it is turning, not maximum all the time but a lot of power. And for every unit of time it operates it saves fuel at some power plant or means a new plant does not have to be constructed.
For instance the wind farm that T Boone Pickens is constructing is 4,000 MW which is the equivalent of two power plants each with a 500 MW generator which is about the going rate now.
And by the way even a new Generating plant will not operate all the time, they will be down or reduced for maintenance, when not needed and other reasons planned and unplanned.
Windmills are in fact a great idea and I hope Pickens keeps pushing his plan and that his overall plan includes not only wind mills but solar, nuclear and of course drilling for oil.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Yeah, that is working out so well for all those who have tried. NOT! By the time you BUY the equipment, (that's providing thee power companies are even willing to let you try) All you end up with is a bigger expense you will never recover.
And don't forget, windmills are or are being BANNED in more and more urban and even suburban areas in America.
"Secondly KW or MW is a measurement of instantaneous power"
No it is not. It is their rated daily max power output.
That's fine, but I have to tell you that with that much experience some of your statements boggle the mind.
For instance, make FPL look like a AAA battery? That is a really stupid comment.
And it appears that NYISO is getting in the windmill business also so you must be misleading a lot of folks here.
NYISO's Plan to Integrate Wind Power Wins FERC Approval
FERC issued an order June 17 approving the New York Independent System Operator's (NYISO) proposed tariff revisions intended to accommodate wind generating resources in its day-ahead and real-time energy markets. One revision increases the amount of intermittent renewable capacity eligible for special market rules from 1,000 MW to 3,300 MW; in effect, this would increase the amount of intermittent renewable resources eligible for an exemption from persistent under-generation charges. A second revision implements a centralized and mandatory wind forecasting system for all facilities 12 MW or larger. Under the wind forecasting system, wind plant operators would be responsible for the cost of installing and maintaining equipment necessary to collect meteorological data, like wind speed and direction, to be transmitted to NYISO every 15 minutes. NYISO also plans to enforce the wind forecasting system by imposing daily financial sanctions on wind resources that fail to provide the required information or comply within a reasonable notice period. The tariff revisions take effect June 18, 2008.
In its ruling, FERC states that the proposed revisions will encourage wind and other intermittent generators by extending special payment provisions and penalty exemptions to more generators. FERC also asserts that a centralized wind forecasting system will allow NYISO to predict more accurately the availability of wind resources and thereby lower the cost of keeping those resources on line. Additionally, FERC ordered NYISO to submit within two years an informational report evaluating the progress of this program and providing information regarding the costs of this service, the revenues collected and the disposition of those revenues.
The troubling thing from this article is that most of these Kansas windmills are FOREIGN OWNED.
What good does this do if the wind power is wealth-redistributed to foreign companies. Its America, let it be American owned. I know the Liberal Free Trade Globalist crowd loves the foreign redistribution....but its bad for America’s energy independence
Maybe T Boone Pickens needs to first get us off of foreign wind, first
Try Watts (W).
No- try KW. A regular refrigerator uses 1200 watts a day, that's 1.2kw.
A 2 hp water pump requires 1200 watts to run. (600watts =1 hp) Now think how much power your water heater, with 2-3000 watt (3kw per hour) heating elements uses. A CHEAP hair dryer uses 1200 watts.
Apparently you never read a full post either. The ISO is forced to integrate them, which I mentioned, and you also didn’t read.
No it is not. It is their rated daily max power output.
Watts, MegaWatts, KiloWatts are all a measurement of a power output at a given moment. If you want to know what a generator puts out in a time period you would have to add the hour measurement such as watthours, kilowatthours and megwatthours.
I think we are in a semantics thing here but the KW or MW is in fact a maximum it can be putting out at any moment. It can be generating a maximum of 4 MW now and in couple of hours with less wind 2 MW, if you want to know the 24 hour thing you can add the hours and that way get an average.
I think you are talking about energy as opposed to power.
A power station would be rated in watts, but its annual energy sales would be in watt-hours (or kilowatt-hours or megawatt-hours). A kilowatt-hour is the amount of energy equivalent to a steady power of 1 kilowatt running for 1 hour:
Give me a break, you put out some misinformation and I took issue. I could give a crap less that you have all that experience, if you mislead people then all your knowledge is useless.
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