Posted on 08/03/2008 1:59:42 PM PDT by kathsua
Perhaps it would clarify the wind issue if some basic facts were understood. The term is WECS: Wind Energy Conversion Systems, not "farms," "ranches," or "parks." The structures are industrial-scale turbines.
WECS will produce small amounts of energy with an efficiency range averaging 35 percent at most locations. WECS in Kansas in operation or under construction have the ability to produce 1,014 megawatts of electricity at maximum production; less than a quarter of that electricity stays in Kansas.
WECS will not replace conventional coal, gas or nuclear plants, because wind energy is intermittent, unpredictable, unreliable and expensive and cannot be stored in commercial quantities.
WECS will not reduce our consumption of oil. Three percent of oil is used nationwide and 1 percent is used in Kansas for "peaking" periods when electricity is in high demand and wind cannot be counted on.
WECS will pay money to very few landowners. Elk River benefits four landowners; only one is local.
WECS will transfer massive amounts of taxpayer dollars to wind developers and owners, 65 percent nationwide are foreign; 14 out of the 17 in Kansas are foreign owned. Benefits include PTC (Production Tax Credits), rapid depreciation schedules and electricity sales.
Iberdrola of Spain, owner of Elk River, realized over $9.9 million in PTC allowances in 2007. Foreign companies are not regulated by the Kansas Corporation Commission. There are no state or federal regulations of any kind on WECS. Few Kansas counties have wind regulations.
WECS will force consumers to pay for their electricity three times: to build the WECS, build conventional power as backup, and additional transmission lines to carry power from the WECS to the grid.
WECS will not produce large economic benefits to a community as evidenced by records from Gray County (Montezuma), or Butler County (Elk River). Elk River has produced seven jobs. Most employees live outside the community. Construction crews and vehicles were from out of state.
WECS will pay most counties PILOT payments (Payment in Lieu of Taxes). Considered a "gift" to the county, a "payment without consideration," it is not legally enforceable.
WECS will be totally tax-exempt in Kansas unless the current law is changed. WECS will not substantially reduce greenhouse gas, since conventional plants kept in "spinning reserve" to take up slack when wind dies are less efficient.
WECS will contribute to the division and disruption of communities. Riley, Geary, Wabaunsee, Morris, Chase, Butler, Lincoln, Ellsworth, and Ellis counties have all experienced community division involving a wind project. Projects have disrupted communities, split neighbors and even divided families.
WECS will contribute to the destruction and fragmentation of the last remnants of our prairies and open spaces. Elk River's 8,000 acres of beautiful native prairie are now scarred with 100 turbine foundations, trenching to all turbines and about 22 miles of road. The destruction in progress along I-70 at the Smoky Hills wind complex on 25,000 acres of mixed grass prairie shows how native grasslands are turned into an industrial complex that dominates the horizon.
Few developers or power purchasers care about the destruction of the prairie. The notable exceptions are Westar and KCP&L who have met with conservation groups and landowners before developing in order to locate their projects more responsibly.
The governor has wisely encouraged developers to leave a portion of the Flint Hills undeveloped, but all open grasslands are at risk.
Rose Z. Bacon ranches with her husband, Kent, in the Flint Hills of Morris County. She was a member of the Governor's Wind and Prairie Task Force.
Hey, I’m not going to quote your whole post but you are right on track about windmills. They can and will play a major factor in power production.
When the wind is producing then other fuel is being wasted. Plain and simple physics.
No one is advocating wind power alone. However if you designed it and constructed it properly you probably could run your whole house and even sell back to the local utility.
That is assuming your had the wind and property necessary to do so.
First it is not plain and simple physics.
Second you obviously don't know much about operating a power grid. When a unit is not needed it is not operating. Therefore it is not using fuel.
If not totally needed then a unit is powered down to the power that is needed and fuel usage is reduced accordingly.
Not only that but there are people in rooms with computers who decide what units will be used based on the most efficient use and that is how the power is produced.
Unit means a Generating Unit of course and at no time are they operated full blast when not needed.
You'd be wrong. gusty ground winds aren't suitable for windmills, They need to be flown high above ground turbulence in "clean" air. Plus there is such a thing as too much wind. Then you have to shut down your windmills and wait for the storm to pass, and hope it doesn't destroy your windmill anyway.
It is very difficult to generate enough power and live as comfortably as you can on grid power. Rarely do you get a "perfect day" when the windmills are working nominally and you can use all the power you tried design the system for without worry.
Generally, windmill living is a daily exercise in power conservation. You leave nothing turned on or plugged in, you count every watt you use. Night time only one room is used to keep a 15 watt light or two on, watch tv, play on the computer. -Usually that is using under 500 watts of power, with your refrigerator silently sucking away another 600 watts a day.
Using a 100 watt light bulb is insanity most evenings, because that's when the wind dies down and you are running on batteries all night.
Imagine a family with a bunch of children, leaving lights on all over the place, each with their own tv's radio's etc. in their rooms. Then the hor water usage in the morning when everyone is trying to shower and get ready for school and work. I'll tell you right now, it can't be done, not if anyone expects to live like they do now. I can assure you, most famillies would end up in divorce if they were made by their mean old husband/father to live on wind power.
Try Watts (W).
Wind is viable energy, just one part of the solution.
Although I'll admit to not liking the landscape aspect.
It's more obvious that YOU don't. You can't simply shut power stations down. They are kept idle, and still wasting energy.
In hydro electric power stations, water still flows, they can't let it back up, because then the station downstream will use it's reservoir up, and upstream you'll cause floods, not to mention the interruption of fish migration.
So, if their is excess power, a turbine or two will be taken offline, but the water will still be wasted, because the natural flow rate of the river has to be maintained.
Coal fired generating stations can't simply be shut down either, it takes a day just to get them spooled up, they will be kept running for the duration of the run, either the power will be dumped, or the windmill power will be dumped if it can't be used.
Same goes for nuclear power plants. They can't be shut instantly down either. The excess power will be dumped, and shut down procedure will be commenced if the power can't be sold somewhere else. To shut down a nuclear plant in the middle of a run is terrible waste of fuel.
Your post was excellent. You made the point much better than I could have.
Wind will probably never be a primary source of energy, but could definitely compliment and enhance other sources. Quite a bit of “big money” is investing in the technology. I believe, as you said, that if there is a profit being shown, others will want a piece of the pie and further technology will be developed to make it more usable. And I am not one that thinks making money is a bad thing. Especially if the end result is good.
We will ultimately have to move in other directions to support oil for energy. I believe it will be a combination of wind, solar, nuclear, coal and using our own oil and natural gas supply.
The thing that distresses me is the constant chorus of why “this or that won't work”. Instead of “let's see what we can do to make it work”. (I sure hate that the phrase “Yes, we can” has been hijacked.) :)
There is a Walmart in my area that runs about 60 per cent on solar and wind power.
I'd love to see the EPA approve the development of a huge artificial reservoirs, flooding thousands of acres of wobble worm habitat.
And abandoned gas wells, oh yes! spew some sour gas out with that compressed air,killing all wildlife in the area- that ought to impress the EPA as well! :o)
It is very difficult to generate enough power and live as comfortably as you can on grid power. Rarely do you get a "perfect day" when the windmills are working nominally and you can use all the power you tried design the system for without worry.
Generally, windmill living is a daily exercise in power conservation. You leave nothing turned on or plugged in, you count every watt you use. Night time only one room is used to keep a 15 watt light or two on, watch tv, play on the computer. -Usually that is using under 500 watts of power, with your refrigerator silently sucking away another 600 watts a day.
Using a 100 watt light bulb is insanity most evenings, because that's when the wind dies down and you are running on batteries all night.
Imagine a family with a bunch of children, leaving lights on all over the place, each with their own tv's radio's etc. in their rooms. Then the hor water usage in the morning when everyone is trying to shower and get ready for school and work. I'll tell you right now, it can't be done, not if anyone expects to live like they do now. I can assure you, most famillies would end up in divorce if they were made by their mean old husband/father to live on wind power.
Nathan your analogy is true if someone wants to disconnect themselves from the power grid. However when you build a 4,0000 mega watt wind farm and connect it to the power grid then what you are saying is not an issue.
The windmills will produce power when they can and when they cannot the existing units pick up the power.
I agree with you I don't want to try to live off a windmill in my yard, but a farm of them attached to a grid? Yes!
“General Motors brought out all kind of experts: engineers who testified to the cost o...”
And now we have $9000 cars selling for $26,000, full of cheap plastic, tiny inefficient but “green” engines, and airbags.
Killer sound systems, though.
Your post was excellent. You made the point much better than I could have.
Wind will probably never be a primary source of energy, but could definitely compliment and enhance other sources. Quite a bit of “big money” is investing in the technology. I believe, as you said, that if there is a profit being shown, others will want a piece of the pie and further technology will be developed to make it more usable. And I am not one that thinks making money is a bad thing. Especially if the end result is good.
We will ultimately have to move in other directions to support oil for energy. I believe it will be a combination of wind, solar, nuclear, coal and using our own oil and natural gas supply.
The thing that distresses me is the constant chorus of why “this or that won't work”. Instead of “let's see what we can do to make it work”. (I sure hate that the phrase “Yes, we can” has been hijacked.) :)
There is a Walmart in my area that runs about 60 per cent on solar and wind power.
You have it completely right, and keep it in mind that the 60 percent the Walmart uses wind then a power plant is not having to use their fossil fuel to produce power.
T Boone has a good thing going here.
Wind could be stored as hydrogen, using electrolysis.
Remember a month or two back, when wind in West Texas shifted direction and dropped from 35 to 25 MPH? There was a brownout/blackout that covered a huge area, seems there was insufficient conventional plant backup spinning at the time.
If we are willing to accept third-world power, that’s on and off again and somewhat spotty as to the exact voltage, then alternative power will work. We are used to 120VAC 60 Hz CONSTANTLY on.
I’ve been places in Mexico where your motel cabin has a panel and car battery that runs a single RV fluorescent over the bed for four or five hours- how many Americans want that at home?
The suggestion above that government buildings must use alternative power is a good one!
You actually eat that stuff? All those chemical browners, preservatives etc. Uggh! no wonder people are so fat, have colon cancers, stomach cancer, prostate cancer, pancreas cancer.....
I'm not dead against windmills, just the big ugly installations.
They are suitable in small rural applications for individual use, or at the most a very small community. But don't forget, lead acid batteries aren't exactly environmentally friendly either, and they need replacing periodically.
We should get busy building nuke plants and forget these stupid, ugly and useless mega windmill installations which are only making a few people rich at our expense. No wonder they are pushing for them so hard under the guise of Gore bull warming, which is nothing but a lie.
No, they just cost 35,000 and upwards for a chunk of metal and plastic worth about $500.
But everytime you store it, you reduce the initial efficiency even more. For example, compressing air takes energy.
Quite the contrary, I retired from one of the largest Utilities in the country, FPL.
Who by the way is big in the business of building windmills around the country.
But as to how a power grid works, of course you don't just switch it off, but neither do you run at full power. A unit that might be needed would be contributing at a lower megawatt than it is capable of and brought up to higher production if needed. While not needed then much less fuel is being used.
And speaking of not knowing what they are talking about is that they simply manage chaos, that is one of the most uninformed statement that you could make.
Further for your information, and others here, after that NE blackout many years ago there have been many, many steps taken to improve reliability, you need to quit acting like you know something about systems which you do not. The systems in place for reliability are way to complicated to talk about here, but they exist and work very well.
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