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Pat Buchanan Defends Hitler's Invasion of Poland
littlegreenfootballs.com ^ | May 21, 2008

Posted on 05/21/2008 6:49:34 PM PDT by Free ThinkerNY

Last week we noted the bizarre arguments of Seattle Times editorial writer Bruce Ramsey, who tried so hard to defend Barack Obama against President Bush’s “appeasement” speech that he actually ended up defending Hitler for annexing Austria. His exact words were: “What Hitler was demanding was not unreasonable.”

If you think that’s an ahistorical pretzel of monumental proportions, though, you ain’t seen nothin’ — because here comes Pat Buchanan. According to old Pat, not only was the Anchluss not a problem, Hitler’s invasion of Poland was also perfectly understandable, given the Poles’ refusal to negotiate.

Those darned stubborn Poles were responsible for starting World War II, according to Pat: Bush Plays the Hitler Card.

German tanks, however, did not roll into Poland until a year later, Sept. 1, 1939. Why did the tanks roll? Because Poland refused to negotiate over Danzig, a Baltic port of 350,000 that was 95 percent German and had been taken from Germany at the Paris peace conference of 1919, in violation of Wilson’s 14 Points and his principle of self-determination.

Hitler had not wanted war with Poland. He had wanted an alliance with Poland in his anti-Comintern pact against Joseph Stalin.

But the Poles refused to negotiate. Why? Because they were a proud, defiant, heroic people and because Neville Chamberlain had insanely given an unsolicited war guarantee to Poland. If Hitler invaded, Chamberlain told the Poles, Britain would declare war on Germany.

From March to August 1939, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. But the Poles, confident in their British war guarantee, refused. So, Hitler cut his deal with Stalin, and the two invaded and divided Poland.

The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.


TOPICS: Editorial; Germany; Russia; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: appeasement; appeaser; buchanan; coughlinjunior; dhimmi; dhimmitude; europeanunion; germany; jackbootedfascist; mullahpat; nato; patbuchanan; pitchforkpat; poland; russia; t34; unitedkingdom; ussr; waronterror; worldwarii
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To: Toddsterpatriot

241 posted on 05/23/2008 12:08:24 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Tell me, what was the point Pat made in the conlusory remarks that Taranto excised?

Can't answer because quoting Pat accurately destroys Taranto's scurilous thesis.

242 posted on 05/23/2008 12:12:01 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
Why did the tanks roll? Because Poland refused to negotiate over Danzig, a Baltic port of 350,000 that was 95 percent German and had been taken from Germany at the Paris peace conference of 1919, in violation of Wilson's 14 Points and his principle of self-determination.

The tanks rolled, not because of Hitler, but because of what Poland did.

Hitler had not wanted war with Poland. He had wanted an alliance with Poland in his anti-Comintern pact against Joseph Stalin.

Hitler was a reasonable guy. He just wanted an alliance.

But the Poles refused to negotiate. Why? Because they were a proud, defiant, heroic people and because Neville Chamberlain had insanely given an unsolicited war guarantee to Poland. If Hitler invaded, Chamberlain told the Poles, Britain would declare war on Germany.

Those unreasonable Poles. It was all their fault. And Britain's.

From March to August 1939, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. But the Poles, confident in their British war guarantee, refused.

See, Hitler was the reasonable one.

So, Hitler cut his deal with Stalin, and the two invaded and divided Poland.

See what happens if you don't take Pat's advice, Hitler has no choice but to invade.

The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

The cost was the fault of the refusal not the fault of the invaders.

Now that I've seen the logic of Pat's claim, how could I have ever thought he was an idiot? /idiocy off.

Except Pat's idiocy is never off.

243 posted on 05/23/2008 12:18:11 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: AndyJackson

Please, feel free to post Pat’s wisdom. LOL!


244 posted on 05/23/2008 12:19:33 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
What LGF said Buchanan wrote: Pat Buchanan Defends Hitler's Invasion of Poland

What Pat Buchanan actually wrote: Bush Plays the Hitler Card

Knock yourself out. LOL!

245 posted on 05/23/2008 12:21:43 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
And that changes Pat's article how? You'll notice I only quoted what he wrote, not his or lgf's title.

Keep digging. LOL!

246 posted on 05/23/2008 12:32:11 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
Not defending Pat here, because I don't think you can ravel and reknit history into what-should-have-been the way he does. But his book coming out Tuesday does go into the history and the reasons for the war very thoroughly. He knows his history and is a good writer. Could be worthwhile reading just to see all the mistakes that were made.
247 posted on 05/23/2008 12:41:25 PM PDT by firebrand
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Hitler was a reasonable guy. He just wanted an alliance.

These are your words, not Pats.

Pat's words:If Hitler invaded, Chamberlain told the Poles, Britain would declare war on Germany.

Your words: Those unreasonable Poles. It was all their fault. And Britain's.

Those were not Pat's words. How did Chamberlain's promise work out for the Poles? Not to well, I think history shows.

Your words: See, Hitler was the reasonable one.

Where did Pat or anyone say Hitler was reasonable, besides you.

Pat's words: So, Hitler cut his deal with Stalin, and the two invaded and divided Poland.

Did or did not Hitler cut a deal with Stalin and divide Poland?

Your words: See what happens if you don't take Pat's advice, Hitler has no choice but to invade.

Where does Pat say Hitler had no choice but to invade? All Pat says is that Hitler did invade.

Pat's words: The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig was millions of Polish dead, the Katyn massacre, Treblinka, Sobibor, Auschwitz, the annihilation of the Home Army in the Warsaw uprising of 1944, and 50 years of Nazi and Stalinist occupation, barbarism and terror.

Pat points out that that choice had a cost, but you adduce in your words: The cost was the fault of the refusal not the fault of the invaders.

Pointing out that Poland chose Option 2 rather than Option 1 to their great detriment in the Prisoner's dilemma that Hitler put Poland in, diminishes not one wit Hitler's guilt for creating the dilemma or executing the threat and the Poles.

Again you repeat the fallacy. It is the same fallacy as in concluding that the statement "the rapist killed his victim because she refused to comply with his demands" justifies the rapist's act of murder or turns the rapist into a "reasonable guy" in your words. Pointing out that the victim has options in the face of overwhelming deadly force does not justify the actions of the assailant, and Pat nowhere excuses Hitler. Telling your child, "if you had only stepped back to the curb your leg would not be in a cast" is to advise the child that there are wise and foolish choices in the world. It does not alleviate the guilt of the driver who hit him, or pass guilt from the driver to the victim.

The general fallacy that you commit is the following. It is a principal of law that when a perpetrator threatans deadly force, any compliance by the victim is regarded as under durress and does not alleviate the guilt of the perpetrator. The perp is guilty regardless of what the victim does. To advise the victim that under threat of force or violence there are options and that some may have more favorable outcomes than others again does nothing to alleviate the guilt of the perpetrator. To point out that if your goal is continued life and happiness after the act of violation, some choices may be foolish again is not to alleviate the guilt of the perpetrator.

But in your immoral universe all attempts to impart wisdom to potential victims is to justify the acts of the perpetrator. Fortunately, modern theories of justice are not as foolish as you are.

248 posted on 05/23/2008 12:47:36 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Toddsterpatriot
And you still dodge the ultimate question: What point did Pat make in the conlusory remarks that Taranto excised?

You won't answer because to do so unralvels your argumet and his hatchett job. It is like the oath you take before testifying in court to tell the truth and the WHOLE truth. Well neither you nor he can fact the WHOLE truth.

249 posted on 05/23/2008 12:50:23 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
And you still dodge the ultimate question: What point did Pat make in the conlusory remarks that Taranto excised?

You have all the links. If you think you can make a point, make it.

250 posted on 05/23/2008 12:52:20 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

I want it in your words. Why do you dodge Pat’s conclusion which Tarant excised. It is because neither you nor he can deal in whole truths.


251 posted on 05/23/2008 12:54:19 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
These are your words, not Pats.

Pat didn't say Hitler wanted an alliance?

Those were not Pat's words.

Pat didn't blame Poland, for not negotiating? Pat didn't blame Britain, for their promise to declare war? The only one I don't see Pat blaming is Hitler.

How did Chamberlain's promise work out for the Poles? Not to well, I think history shows.

Duh.

All Pat says is that Hitler did invade.

He wasn't blaming Poland for not negotiating?

Where does Pat say Hitler had no choice but to invade?

From March to August 1939, Hitler tried to negotiate Danzig. But the Poles, confident in their British war guarantee, refused. So, Hitler cut his deal with Stalin, and the two invaded and divided Poland.

Pat points out that that choice had a cost, but you adduce in your words: The cost was the fault of the refusal not the fault of the invaders.

Where did I get that idea? "The cost of the war that came of a refusal to negotiate Danzig" Oh, yeah.

Again you repeat the fallacy.

The fallacy belongs to Pat. If they had only negotiated, they would not have suffered the cost.

252 posted on 05/23/2008 1:02:06 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
There is a whole book on the general subject which Pat is addressing. It is the game theoretic approach that Schelling (Nobel Prize) developed for understanding how to make stratetic trades and tradeoffs in the Cold War. It is how we survived with the "reasonable" Soviets.
253 posted on 05/23/2008 1:02:51 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
I want it in your words.

That's funny. I want it in Pat's words.

Why do you dodge Pat’s conclusion which Tarant excised.

I don't know what you're even talking about. So post Pat's conclusion already. Instead of whining about it.

254 posted on 05/23/2008 1:04:09 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

I did.


255 posted on 05/23/2008 1:12:36 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Duh

Well, finally you have gained command of the overridingly important obvious.

256 posted on 05/23/2008 1:14:26 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson

I guess it didn’t prove your claim.


257 posted on 05/23/2008 1:16:24 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Why are doom and gloomers, union members and liberals so bad at math?)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Pat didn't blame Poland, for not negotiating? Pat didn't blame Britain, for their promise to declare war? The only one I don't see Pat blaming is Hitler.

Blame? The trial of the Nazis happened 50 years ago and they were justly found guilty of war crimes. Where did Pat say "j'accuse." Yes Britain's representations to Poland were foolish. Yes Poland was foolish to rely on impotent British threats and promises. Blame and guilt? That was already decided by the war crimes tribunals. Pat is discusing wisdom in the conduct of foreign policy and foreign relations. In the face of Hitler's deadly menance both Britain and Poland behaved very foolishly. Being foolish does not mean you are guilty or "blameworthy." You are simply foolish. Pat suggests Bush and Israel might learn from this and not be foolish in the future. You seem to suggest that we should continue to be foolish because for either party to take the lesson of the foolishness of the Brits and Poles would be to let Hitler off the hook.

I didn't think anyone was quite that dumb, but I am not unrelenting on that view.

258 posted on 05/23/2008 1:23:49 PM PDT by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
I'm sure that you are aware that there are untold cases of people giving into the rapists and robbers—begging for the lives the whole time—; trying to dodge the errant bullet; or trying to jump back to the curb and death is still their reward?

If Pat is suggesting that things could be no worse for the Poles if they simply negotiated with Hitler, what were the Poles hopes, after watching moves in the Rhineland, Austria, and Czechoslovakia—not to mention the history of previous partitions and annexations of their country by the Germans, Austrians, and Russians in the 18th and 19th centuries—that things would be, in 1939, any better for them?
259 posted on 05/23/2008 1:25:52 PM PDT by BradyLS (DO NOT FEED THE BEARS!)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
I'd trust Jamas Taranto reporting what Pat Buchanan had said first, before trusting Buchanan's skewed history of WWII. He really exposed himself this time.

Oh well, some Joe Palookas come here to feel superior and to explain to us dummies what they are convinced we don't comprehend.

260 posted on 05/23/2008 1:34:35 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (I'll pray for celebrities as soon as they start praying for me!)
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