Posted on 04/21/2008 6:19:21 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
SAN ANGELO, Texas — A judge wants attorneys representing FLDS mothers and children to ask local LDS congregations if they would be willing to "provide a buffer" for FLDS members who wish to pray in groups at a temporary shelter. Judge Barbara Walther made the decision late Monday afternoon at a hearing to address three issues brought by attorneys representing mothers of children who remain in a state shelter. A total of 416 children were removed from the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch earlier this month as part of a child-abuse investigation.
The group of mothers filed court papers earlier Monday demanding their rights to pray in private without having a Texas Department of Family and Protective Services worker overseeing them. They also filed a motion asking the judge to allow them to stay with their nursing children and asked for access to telephones to communicate with their attorneys.
Addressing the concerns about prayer, Walther said she was aware of a community of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in San Angelo. While acknowledging LDS Church members are not from the same group, she asked attorneys to see if the LDS faith would be willing to monitor the prayer services of the women and children who remain in the shelter.
"How would I stop someone from practicing their faith?" the judge asked. She acknowledged concerns from Texas child welfare authorities about improper communications between mothers and children that could occur in such private prayer times and have an affect on the pending investigations.
"If they cross the line or coach the child or make any kind of comment on litigation, all bets are off," Walther said.
The president of the LDS Abilene Texas Stake, which oversees San Angelo, was surprised by the judge's request.
"They think we're the same ones because we use the Book of Mormon," said Charles L. Webb. "I'm dumbfounded they would suggest that."
Webb plans to contact church headquarters in Salt Lake City for guidance.
The judge did say if that fails, she would look at other options.
Regarding breast-feeding, the judge said attorneys ad litem should be working with Texas child protective services workers in mediation to solve that problem, declining to consider the motion to order that nursing mothers remain in the shelter with their children.
Last week, mothers of children over 4 years old were separated from their children and sent back to their homes. Texas child welfare officials have said the mothers that remain with their young children in the temporary shelters will eventually be separated as foster families and foster homes are located.
On the issue of the FLDS women and children being allowed contact with attorneys, the judge ordered eight phone lines to be set up — six for the children and two for the mothers — with 24-hour access to their attorneys.
Lawyers for Department of Family and Protective Services said they had already set up the phone lines earlier Monday.
At the end of the hearing, an attorney asked the judge to consider her motion to stop the separation of mothers from their children. The judge said she hadn't seen the motion, noting that she had a large stack of motions to go over.
When the attorney pressed her to consider it immediately, Walther stood up and announced, "Ladies and gentleman, this hearing is concluded," and abruptly left the bench.
In the motion, attorney Andrea Sloan asked the judge to allow the women and children 30 minutes in the morning and again at night to pray in private. "Without exception, respondent mothers have reported that the department will not let them pray without being monitored by the department," Sloan wrote.
Attorneys were also pushing to keep a group of nursing mothers from being separated from their children, pending the results of DNA testing currently under way in San Angelo. "Some of respondent mothers are currently parenting children under the age of 2 years of age and are still breast-feeding," the motion stated.
The women's attorneys also filed motions arguing that when cell phones were taken from the women, they lost the ability to communicate effectively with their clients. The cell phones were taken the day after members of the FLDS Church inside the Fort Concho shelter spoke out to the Deseret News, complaining of cramped conditions.
The women provided the Deseret News with photographs taken by a cell phone to show the conditions. Shortly afterward, they were all moved to the San Angelo Coliseum, where some of the children have remained.
The motions were filed in 51st District Court today by attorneys for Charlotte Johnson, Suzanne Johnson, Sarah Johnson, Angela Harker and other mothers of children taken from the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.
Authorities began collecting DNA samples Monday morning from children taken from the ranch, the Texas Attorney General's Office said.
The children were to be given a cheek swab, then photographed and fingerprinted. They have each been assigned a number to identify them and the sample they gave.
"We began the process this morning and anticipate working on this throughout the week," said Janece Rolfe, a spokeswoman for the Texas attorney general. "It will be about 30 days to receive results, maybe a little longer."
Judge Barbara Walther signed court papers this morning ordering the DNA samples.
"The Court finds that an unknown number of males of reproductive age reside, or have resided, at the ranch during the probable time of conception of one or more of the children the subject of this suit," her order says. "The court further finds that an unknown number of females of child bearing age reside, or have resided at the ranch and could be the mother of one or more children the subject of this suit."
The order lists the hundreds of names of parents and children that are known at the YFZ Ranch, including FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, who it lists as being in "prison."
The parents on the YFZ Ranch are expected to show up at the Schleicher County Memorial Building in Eldorado on Tuesday to give a DNA sample. At the makeshift shelter at the San Angelo Coliseum and the Cal Farley Boy's Ranch, where the FLDS children have been staying since they were taken into state custody, children were giving samples.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said it is still having trouble identifying individual children and who their parents are.
"We're still not getting names," said child protective services spokesman Greg Cunningham. "We don't know who are siblings, mothers, fathers."
The raid on the YFZ Ranch was prompted by a phone call to a San Angelo family crisis center from a 16-year-old girl who claimed she was abused, pregnant and married to a 50-year-old man. Authorities have not been able to identify her, but said that when they went onto the ranch to investigate the complaint they found signs of other children being abused.
That led to the judge's order removing all 416 children from the ranch. Last week, Walther ordered that all children will remain in state custody.
Once the DNA samples are gathered, Cunningham said they will move forward with placing the children in foster care.
"We've got some of the placements lined up, but we're still waiting for some guidance from the court," he said.
Child protective services said the children will be kept in groups, including teenage mothers with their children and siblings grouped together. The children would likely not be going to a typical foster home, Cunningham said.
"It's a home-type setting. A majority of them would go to a residential facility," he said. "There are several different options out there."
Authorities refused to discuss how the children would be transitioned from the San Angelo Coliseum to foster care because of security reasons.
Outside the coliseum today, the police presence has been heavy. Texas state troopers, Tom Green County sheriff's deputies, San Angelo police and unmarked patrol cars have all been seen circling the large parking lot surrounding the building.
Does it bother anyone that the children don’t even know who their parents are?”
I think it bothers this judge alot.
I am glad to see that she isn’t going to be a pushover.
The fact that the mothers won’t help to ID the kids and who the fathers are is a real indication that they know they have crossed a really bigline in the society of the USA.
Calling this group a “church” and letting them live this life-style and call it a “religion” is beyond disgusting.
These women have been raised knowing only the domination of the older men, and they know no other rules for life.
I really feel sorry for the whole lot of the women and the children, and also the young men-AKA LOST BOYS- who are turned out on a local road with no money and no contacts to go make their way in the world. It is very apparent that the older men don’t want the younger ones to be any sort of competition for attention to the women.
This is going to take years to untangle, and some of these women will never be independent.
“Because they’re white christians.”
You have GOT to be kidding. Jesus taught His followers to obey their government, and that was the lovely Romans. St. Paul wrote, “Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient.” (Titus 3:1) and in Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.” Only when the government orders Christians to disobey God are we given permission to disobey government.
If you aren't sure about the background of the poster, check the date they signed up. Check their homepage.
I don't consider old married men raping little girls folk, they are subhuman. No offense to animals intended.
The state can stand between an abusive mother and her newborn child. And one more Supreme Court Justice and we may have returned to the standard that the state can stand between a murderer and her intended victim!
I really don't like this looseness that allows the murderers to walk the streets with impunity and to slaughter the innocent. Do you?
At the same time some of the F(lds) supporters sound about as ignorant as we would expect members of that gang to sound and they may be members.
All is not as it seems apparently.
“But oh no. NOt the wacky mormons fringe loonies. THey aren’t allowed.
Why? Because they’re white christians. Double standard.
Don’t even try to deny it.”
Not everyone here knows that part of the cults teachings, you should have posted it.
Warren Jeffs transcript:
On Race http://www.myeldorado.net/YFZ%20Pages/YFZ040305.html
“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, or rude and filthy, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits; wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is usually bestowed upon mankind.”
“So I give you this lesson on the black race that you can understand its full effects as far as we are able to comprehend. And that we must beware – if we are for the prophet, the priesthood – we will come out of the world and leave off their dress, their music, their styles, their fashions; the way they think, what they do, because you can trace back and see a connection with immoral, filthy people.”
“It was necessary that the Devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God. So Ham’s wife that was preserved on the Ark was a Negro of the seed of Cain and there was a priestly purpose in it, that the Devil would have a representation as well as God.
“So the Negro race has continued, and today is the day of the Negro as far as the world is concerned. They have influenced the generations of time; they have mixed their blood with many peoples, until there are many peoples not able to hold the priesthood. …
“And the lesson is, if anyone mingles their seed, their bloodline, with the seed of Cain, the Negro, they also would lose all rights and priesthood blessings.”
So, would it be the Shiites watching the Sunnis, or visa versa?
I don’t know every detail of this case, but why on EARTH would anyone separate a nursing baby from his mother unless the mother was abusive to him??? How cruel can the law get???
The ignorance of this judge isn't going to stop here. I read today where two LDS missionaries were attacked, being lumped in with these miscreants.
This judge is opening a whole can if worms - for one thing, people don't need a building to pray in - one can pray where ever they are...we say our prayers in our homes...
for another thing, if the judge thinks they need a church to pray in - ask ALL the churches in the area.
To ask the LDS church, which has NO connection with these people, is beyond belief...and can precipitate some real trouble
OK, fair enough. Now, tell me, when is the congregation of the Holy Reverend Wright in Chicago, where nearly identical stuff has been preached (with the races in the narrative reversed) going to be raided, its children kidnapped, separated from their mothers, 78% of whom are collecitng welfare, etc, etc? Because that was the whole point of the posts to which you responded.
““Does it bother anyone that the children don’t even know who their parents are?”
You are right. It was discussed a lot yesterday.
If I may add a new (maybe) aspect to it...
The children may know who their real parents are... but that may not be the ‘mother’ and ‘father’ they are living with.
Bullseye!!!!
As I said - the judge's ignorance will precipitate more trouble AND IGNORANCE - it's already raising it's ugly head here.
A cult is a group with a single mind and it is united in purpose and is closed to outsiders, it is especially closed to routine law enforcement.
In a cult that has mothers, fathers, and children only and the crimes they are suspected of are of the mothers and fathers conspiring to breed children, isolate them and brainwash them for rape and continued polygamous relationships to feed the enclosed cycles, then the only way to stand a chance of breaking the cycles and the rapes, is to act as Texas has.
We are not an impotent nation and it is not beyond our abilities to deal with this (or had better not be), and Texas has decided to confront it and try to save children.
You and I have had disagreements prior to this, but it seems we are on the same wavelength on the reality of what has happened with this case.
Thanks.
Perhaps the request from the judge came in response the the fLDS women asking for their scripture, the Book of Mormon, to be brought to them.
The judge complied with the request. The fLDS and LDS have the same scripture, they same hymnbook, and share the reverence for early LDS Prophets, and so the judge rightly concluded that they would have more in common ways of worship than other religions who do not.
Bingo.
You didn't answer the question. But I take it to mean that you are lumping the LDS church in with these miscreants.
This judge shows great ignorance in asking the LDS Church to get involved with these people. And her ignorance may cause others to grab it as a chance to exercise their bigotry which may override common sense and decency.
You say you "happen to have a deep relationship with God, in case you want to know."
Better hope so, for He doesn't like bigotry.
I thought that the subject of your post on this thread was the FLDS, so I naturally took the "White man" to mean the white only FLDS and/or their leader that teaches white supremacy especially because you called it a "sexual crime" which again is what this thread is about, the sex crimes of the FLDS.
yldstrk:”I happen to have a deep relationship with God,”
clee1: “Any man that claims to know the mind of God is an idiot, a fool, or insufferably arrogant.”
First, yldstrk stated that she is female. So I guess that show’s who is ‘ignorant’.
Second, Claiming to have a deep relationship with God, is not claiming to ‘know’ the mind of God.
Devoted study of the Bible is one way to have a deep relationship with God.
“Yep. And to hell with the rights of the mothers and the children! THE JUDGE KNOWS BEST!”
First, their ‘rights’ aren’t being violated.
Second, they had no ‘rights’ at the compound.
Third, The JUDGE probably does know best, since there is high probability that many of the women and children are from slightly to severely retarded.
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