FLDS women seek Texas governor's help

Deseret News ^ | April 13, 2008 | Nancy Perkins

[claudiustg]

SAN ANGELO — A Texas judge on Sunday ordered law enforcement officials to immediately confiscate all cell phones in the possession of FLDS women and children now housed in temporary quarters here. "I just called to say, hi. They are about to collect the phones, I think," one soft-spoken FLDS woman said during a telephone call to another member of the Fundamentalist LDS Church who was outside of the shelter. "I don't like what they're doing."

Several of the women inside the shelters spoke by cell phone to the Deseret News on Saturday to describe the living conditions there. Children could be heard crying in the background of each conversation. The News published an article on Sunday, quoting the women who complained there was no privacy and that their children were getting sick.

FLDS faithful outside the shelter are convinced Sunday's court order is a direct result of the women speaking to the newspaper.

"This is nothing more than retaliation of Child Protective Services to punish those who were disclosing what is really happening behind the walls of this concentration camp," said Don, an FLDS member who asked that his last name not be used. "These are my family members."

[metmom]

but, I also think those who have broken laws should be arrested, tried and sentenced in court if found guilty.

The authorities are trying and being demonized for it.

How else do you propose they go about it?

[deport]

Here are two court orders that have been issued:

Affiddavit in support of the original Petition and Protection of a child:
http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/affidavit.pdf

Search and arrest warrant:
http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/FLDSaffidavit.pdf

Lots of other stories at the Salt Lake Tribune:
http://www.sltrib.com//ci_8835442?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com

[IamConservative]

So since you think that rape, incest, child abuse, welfare fraud, and all is protected because it's part of religion

I didn't say that or even suggest it. Every crime you have cited above is against the law as it should be. What I find missing from the FLDS mess is due process. If the men committed the crimes being discussed, arrest them, put them on trial and let a jury sentence them.

We shouldn't accept or expect changes in due process because we find one crime more repugnant that another.

[deport]

I am equally stunned when I see people who frequent a conservative forum surrender the right to due process.

---

Isn’t due process what is ongoing at this time? It does take time to gather evidence, sort it out, hold preliminary hearings, get indictments, prepare cases, hold trials, etc. etc. etc.

[antceecee]

Bump what you said.

Thanks for that. I was beginning to think I was on a liberal forum instead of FR.

[nomorelurker]

So all will be ok if a fictional person is rescued.

[metmom]

Protecting the rights we cherish in this country is NOT equivalent to condoning purportedly religious behavior that breaks other laws (i.e., pedophilia, murder, assault).

That's exactly what's happening here. Some people are so hung up on *We can't infringe on their religious rights. It's protected by the Constitution* that they ARE protecting and condoning pedophilia, murder, and assault.

These people are saying that all this illegal and immoral behavior is part to their religious practices. Therefore it IS protected from prosecution by the Constitution, by your reasoning.

What good is it having laws against this stuff if the hands of the authorities are tied in dealing with it?

Do you really think that this is the kind of activity that the Founding Fathers intended to protect when they wrote up the First Amendment?

[Wallace T.]

The Amish and Mennonites came to America after persecution in Europe by governments dominated by Lutheran, Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox religious beliefs. Both groups are of Swiss German and German origin, but large numbers fled to Russia to escape Catholic and Lutheran persecution. Some later fled Russia after attempts were made to Russify them and force them into the Tsar's army in the late 1800s. Many of those who remained left after the Communist takeover.

During our War for Independence, the Amish were attacked by both patriots and Tories for their neutrality that was motivated by their pacifism. There were numerous attempts over the years on the part of state governments to impel both Mennonites and Amish to attend secular public schools. During the World Wars, Amish nonresistance sparked many incidents of harassment, and young Amish men forcibly inducted into the services were subjected to various forms of ill treatment. In Quebec (not the United States, of course), the provincial government imposes its curriculum on all schools has caused the Mennonites to leave as the curriculum is unacceptable.

Compared to their fate in Germany and Russia, the Amish and Mennonites have been blessed in America, despite some instances of ill treatment. However, the same type of collectivist mentality that led to the tyrannies in those countries is increasingly prevalent here. Our would be tyrants do not talk about racial superiority or class warfare, but speak in the deceptive language of human perfectibility, elimination of danger, and protection of children. A tyranny of good intentions is still tyranny. Since the Amish and Mennonites attempt to isolate or insulate themselves from the general society, often homeschool, and refuse to join the armed services would make them easy targets for "crisis intervention" by social services, possibly jailing parents for "child abuse" and sending the children to foster homes. Given the increase in nanny statism, this is a real possibility.

[longtermmemmory]

the problem is the direction of the communication.

Apparently these women were talking to the PRESS that the conditions of the protective custody were not good.

What do you do with the over 18 women who have (not pregnant) children and who do not want to be “rescued”?

There are now claims the police “ransaked” their living space/homes. The the police going to forbit photographing of that too?

Is anyone actually under arrest? If these old men are under arrest then they can be forbidden to have contact. Their lawyers can be ordered to not convey messages. (that includes third party intermediaries for those from rio linda)

I have a sinking feeling this is going to go the same ways as the previous prosecution that resulted in a mere 45 day jail sentence and a return to the previous status quo.

[metmom]

If the men committed the crimes being discussed, arrest them, put them on trial and let a jury sentence them.

They're working on it. They need more evidence. Should they put these men in jail pending trial on nothing? How do you propose they get more evidence? Isn't the testimony of the women who've escaped from there good enough for you? Or the pregnant teens? Or the kids who don't even know who their parents are? DO you not know that they've got serach warrants, as required by law?

Do you not realize that a case of this magnitude takes time? How fast do you think they're going to be able to move on this?

[metmom]

I’d be interested in how what is happening with this group any different than what happens in regular cases of alleged abuse.

Aside from the magnitude, are the authorities doing any thing different with these people than with anyone else in similar circumstances?

They got a call for help, which they always have to take seriously. They got a search warrant. Kids are in protective custody as in any case of alleged abuse. The mothers left voluntarily. The authorities are in there with more warrants collecting evidence, documents if possible.

So why are they being so demonized? Are they doing something different than they would if it were a non-religious group?

[colorcountry]

“ransaked”.... forbit .... rio linda????

Resty, is that you?

[Wallace T.]

Polygamy is in violation of the Seventh Commandment. The New Testament is even more clear in its condemnation of the practice. I Corinthians 7:2 states, "each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband". As for child abuse, Jesus Christ's comments about those who would corrupt children being better off if they had a millstone tied around their necks and tossed into the sea are convicting. Since the Bible alone is the Word of God and the unique revelation of God to man, the writings in the Mormon scriptures have no divine origin. In any case, the mainstream LDS church, which regards the Book of Mormon, etc., as being the word of God, rejected polygamy over a century ago.

I have no sympathy with the FLDS, and regard them as abominable in their practices. My issue is not with them, but with the overreach on the part of the Texas authorities.

[JRochelle]

You need not inform me of the Anabaptist history, I am a descendant of Anabaptists who escaped Europe.

The only valid comparison would be to the Hutterites as they live in a socialist communal lifestyle. But you see, they aren't forcing their young girls to marry men twice their age.

This is a live and let live society. Until you cross a line. And these pervs in Texas have crossed a line. You cannot compare this situation to the disputes over education that many religions have had with the government. Those are issues of theology and parental rights. This case isn't. This is about the rights of children not to be sexually assaulted. There is no give and take in this situation. You either approve of child rape or you don't.

[JRochelle]

ROTFL!

[longtermmemmory]

unfortunatly the case law takes a dim view of fishing expeditions.

It does not matter who the case is about, they prosecution has to do it right the first time. They also have to prove the audio call was genuine and not a hoax from the authorities themselves.

We are seeing the time of a horror story but the authorities are only going to increase their odds of losing the longer this drags out.

[nomorelurker]

Thanks for posting the original search affidavit I had not seen it. My suspicions were correct it seems to be based on hearsay. The second affidavit does indeed contain much more probable cause info but it is the result of an entry due to the first affidavit. I see problems, I do not think you can bootstrap that way. Also we should all keep in mind there are two different things going on here, one criminal, one civil, as in what happens to the children.

[antceecee]

You are attributing to me things I have not said. You and several here have done this to anyone who questions whether appropriate protections are given to the accused, who have not yet been formally charged.
It really is quite insulting and you should stop it. The authorities do not have their hands tied. The right to freedom of religion is not the right being violated here... the right to be properly charged and tried by a jury of peers is what I see lacking. You and others here have just about come up with the verdict and punishment and yet no charges have been formally brought, no evidence has been presented, no judgment rendered.
What is wrong with you? Can’t you understand what is being said to you? You are so hung up on giving the government carte blanch to do whatever they want you forget that we “limit” our government and individuals do have “rights”.
I realize the children were taken under a protective order, I’m fine with that. I don’t agree with those on this site who feel the accused have no rights. I also don’t like seeing anyone tried by media. We have safeguards in this country, which I happen to believe is a good thing. It looks to me like you want to throw out the Bill of Rights. Would that make you happy? Perhaps then you will quit accusing those who believe in our Constitution of being supporters and protectors of alleged pedophiles/rapists. That is the most disgusting thing I see on this forum... no one here supports the abuse of children.
I think you should go through the Bill of Rights and let us know which ones should be thrown out.. just a frame of reference so we can know exactly how many rights you feel we should have abridged by government.

[deport]

Sheer numbers make this case unique and probably much different than other child abuse cases involving a single family. I don’t know by who or how the children are taken care of in a single family case. Is the child held by the state, placed with another family member or some other family acting on behalf of the state?

[Wallace T.]

Sexual abuse such as sex with underage minors should be punished to the full extent of the law. However, the standards should be no different than with any prosecution of any other individual, with the standards of due process enforced, a fair trial by jury, and competent legal representation of the defendant. There was no reason to expel several hundred people from their homes through intimidation. It begins to smack more of social engineering and nanny statism than of punishing actual criminals.