Army takes HK416s from special unit

Military.com ^ | 12 March 08 | Matthew Cox

[LSUfan]

Source is headline and link-only. Click here for full article

[archy]

But, I was thinking earlier that maybe a good idea would be to neck up a 223 to maybe a 25 caliber, then load a sabboted 22 caliber bullet in it.

You get into some problems with flash suppressors and other muzzle devices with sabot rounds, one reason our M48A5 tanks that had a big honkin' muzzle brake on the end of the main gun tube didn't have a 90mm Sabot round available, and our M60 tanks with 105mm barrels without a muzzle device did get the Magic Bullets. There are other considerations with tank guns, of course, but a lot of the basics still very much apply.

Also, very fast burning powder, polygonal rifling, increased head space, less twist, much higher chamber pressures, aluminum cases or steel if necessary and a hammerforged stainless barrel. Heck, make it out of monel or nikasil or whatever stands up better than stainless. Invent a new metal if necessary. Whatever it takes to increase pressure and velocity.

But without corresponding increases in recoil or muzzle rise in full-chat, muzzle blast, or heat signature of the barrel in thermal viewers. You know that they're tinkering with a liquid-cooled M16A2 barrel in hopes of keeping the heat sig down?

But not at the expense of accuracy. Some of the ideas I just threw out may hurt accuracy.

And weight. Even the weight of one additional magazine is critical in a world where guys toss the Joker out of the card deck and saw the handles down on their toothbrushes and spoons.

[mamelukesabre]

If they are really that keen on weight reduction, all the more reason to switch to aluminum cartridge cases.

[archy]

Feed reliability partly comes from the fact that bullet diameter is less than case diameter.

Just right offhand, I can't immediately recall any round that has a bullet diameter greater than the case diameter....

Very funny. I meant to type “greatly less than” or “significantly less than”.

You're thinking of the idea that such a design, frequently including a taper to the overall case dimension, is more easily guided into the chamber during the feeding cycle. But that may work against reliable feeding within the magazine body, [or belt link] in that the space between rounds offers a place for dust/sand/mud to collect and de-lubricate the cartridges during the feed cycle. I'm waiting to see how a pal's .450 Hornady [.450 Bushmaster, .450 Thumper]conversion for his M4 works out, but the reduction of magazine capacity is not exactly what I'm after.

[mamelukesabre]

liquid-cooled M16A2 barrel in hopes of keeping the heat sig down?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope. Didn’t know that. That’s gotta add weight.

Can’t throw out muzzle brakes and suppressors, so I guess sabots are out.

Bushmaster makes carbon fiber receivers for AR rifles. I wonder why the military doesn’t adopt those? At least the lower receiver. A carbon upper might be less durable.

[archy]

If they are really that keen on weight reduction, all the more reason to switch to aluminum cartridge cases.

That's a big part of the picture. A lot of it hinges on aluminum being the most plentiful/available metal, as well.

But we may not be all that far away from the plastic/ sintered powder or caseless cartridge. And until that development comes along, there are still over 100 million AKs around the world, and between 15-25 million AR15/M16 variants.

That middle cartridge [pretty!] at the end of my #100 post is an n aluminum cased example. From circa 1952....

[archy]

A carbon upper might be less durable.

Especially if you step to either side of the ramp of a CH-47 $hithook when the engines are going. And similar situations. Aiiiiieeee!

[kiriath_jearim]

The US Army and Marine Corps should switch either to AKs or “semi-auto” M14s. The M16 package should be relegated to Air Force MPs protecting paved airfields, as was the intention of Air Force General Curtis LeMay during the Vietnam War.

[Travis McGee]

What we all seek is “over match.” We want to dominate the situations we are likely to find ourselves in if TSHTF. For me, the AR-15 carbine fits this. I can readily tote it in a vehicle or break it down and put it in a pack. A half dozen full magazines would “over match” any gang of pistoleros. The 5.56 will go right through soft armor, but give good terminal effects. Accurate and fast out to 300 yards, or longer if the eyes and optics permit. Light enough to carry all day, though that is unlikely at our ages. I’m not likely to do a 5,000 round unlubed stoppage test, if I ever fire 180 rounds in anger, that will be a max encounter, and I have 100% confidence the rifle will do that and much more.

[Travis McGee]

Trying to get better small arms to our troops is a project for a Sisyphus.

[mamelukesabre]

The most ergonomic and fastest target acquiring configuration I know of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PaintBallMarker.jpg

Now, change the “hopper” to a high tech multi functional optics system, move the “tank” to the rear of the receiver and change it to a high tech recoil absorbtion device(possibly hydraulic) and you have a silouette of what I envision to be the future battle rifle. The magazine is missing however.

Notice that an M16 with about a 12” barrel would come awfully close to that silouette.

For magazine type and location, I’m partial to the calico.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm

The reason I like the calico magazine is it permits the foreward grip to be very close to the trigger, as in the painball gun. The bottom eject would need to be changed to a forward eject, like the new FN rifle has.

Short barrels reduce bullet speed with current loadings. We need guns that can withstand twice the chamber pressures currently common, or more. I’m thinking 4 to 6 thousand ft/sec from a 12” barrel.

[Travis McGee]

If you are going by muzzle energy, a .17 beats the .45.

But in the real world, that big fat slow .45 makes a big damn hole in bad guys, and dumps all of it’s energy into him. The 9mm hardball zips right through, and leaves most of its energy in the next wall.

Now, if you are upping the ante to 9mm +P hollowpoints, that is a different issue, and a solution forbidden to soldiers.

[Lurker]

For later.

[Vinnie]

But we may not be all that far away from the plastic/ sintered powder or caseless cartridge.

I went to a tank practice shoot at Ft. Bragg several months ago.

Was surprised to find out the rounds used in the M1 Abrams are made of a plastic. That is the cartridge case portion.

When the breech is opened, the only thing spit out is the primer cup. It's about the diameter of a beer can and about 1 1/2 " high. of
Everything else went out the barrel.

[archy]

The most ergonomic and fastest target acquiring configuration I know of...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:PaintBallMarker.jpg

Now, change the “hopper” to a high tech multi functional optics system, move the “tank” to the rear of the receiver and change it to a high tech recoil absorbtion device(possibly hydraulic) and you have a silouette of what I envision to be the future battle rifle. The magazine is missing however.

Notice that an M16 with about a 12” barrel would come awfully close to that silouette.

Army RAP4 METS training

For magazine type and location, I’m partial to the calico.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg57-e.htm

The reason I like the calico magazine is it permits the foreward grip to be very close to the trigger, as in the painball gun. The bottom eject would need to be changed to a forward eject, like the new FN rifle has.

The Calico eject out-the-pistol-grip arrangement wasn't so bad for a pistol caliber case, but I don't know if that arrangement was used on the 5.56mm version under development before the company relocated from California [CALifornia Instrument CO.] after California passed their assault weapons ban. Though a folding stock was available on some of the .22 and 9mm CALICO *rifles* and the CALICO SMG, I was always pretty happy using the 100-round magazine of the 9mm pistol as a *cheekweld* buttstock substitute.

So long as the ejection isn't to either side, either outward or downward seems to work, though the in-line feed is hardly unique to the CALICO, found previously on the caseless H&K G11 caseless design and the Hill submachinegun of the 1950s.

Short barrels reduce bullet speed with current loadings. We need guns that can withstand twice the chamber pressures currently common, or more. I’m thinking 4 to 6 thousand ft/sec from a 12” barrel.

Ow. Hurts my ears just thinkin' about it. But with about 6 inches of suppressor on the end, I guess it'd be managable indoors in a bullpup configuration.

[LSUfan]

Horrible image.

That’s a British soldier on a Warrior IFV.

[archy]

Horrible image.

That’s a British soldier on a Warrior IFV.

Yep. Fropm Basra a couple of years back, after the Brits sprung a couple of their people from a local Iraqi hoosegow. Or Gaol, to the Brits. It's one of the pics I've got bookmarked and drag out when one of the young troops begins complaining about how hot the Nomex is.

The other time it's handy is when somebody says that Molotov cocktails won't work against modern vehicles with Diesel engines and fixed fire extinguisher systems. They may not work as well, but....

[mamelukesabre]

Suppressor is right! My opinion is, a suppressor should be standard equipment on all firearms INCLUDING CIVILIAN firearms. tinnitus is a b!tch. I especially think we should all have these gizmos after recently reading that somebody invented a suppressor that doesn’t add much to the overall length of the barrel. Apparently, this new fangled suppressor slides over the barrel and also has some compensator effect to counter muzzle rise.

[archy]

Yep. That's Juha Hartikka's *reflex suppressor,* which extends the baffle stack of the can around the barrel. These are most certainly NOT *just another marketing claim*, the development of suppressor technology has been extensive in Finland, and representative designs are far from *just another stack of washers/baffles with a hole down the middle.*

Info *here and more *here*, including a neat pic of suppressor-equipped MG34.

The company name is BR-Tuote. Contact info *here.*

[Manly Warrior]

I think we concur on a whole lot of this discussion. That’s a good thing!

I guess I missed the 6.8x39 idea-I never saw much utility in the AK weapon overall. What I do know is that a lot of 7.62x39 rounds get thrown at us (general direction anyway, not too much aimed fire in my experience (a very good thing!), while we paid some more attention to putting the dot on the BG and, well, you know.

Ref. the concept of intermediate caliber combinations-they all have fallen by the wayside, excepting the 556 (speaking of western counties anyway). Don’t hold your breath for a new service cartridge!

I think the guts of the problem is we are still using centerfire cartridge technology that is well over 125+ years old. Where are teh JMBs of teh 21st century? (oh, right, we pump billions into non-lethal etc, when the bottom line is BGs need to be killed)

Our mid-bore cannons (25mm Bushmaster etc) operate at a whole lot higher pressures (~125k psi), they hold together and are very potent, yet our small arms are still limited to 60k psi....

I have a Ruger M77 270 win that I double charged with a reduced load of pistol powder (short range practice, and it held together-case head expanded about .050”, primer was never found and the bolt had to be beaten open with a leather hammer. I was too old to be turned over my Dad’s knee (I was about 15) but I got a very stern lecture about QC in the reloading process! I always do basic brass checks for case head expansion with my reloading endeavors.

[SLB]

Not only the bean counters, but our “friends” in congress that force procurement laws on those of us involved in acquisition that leave no legal outs from stupid decisions such as this. Rep Coburn made a stand, but he is swimming uphill against all his cohorts in the house.