Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Local and state officials entered the temple of a secretive polygamist sect late Saturday, said lawmen blockading the road to the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.
The action comes hours after local prosecutors said officials were preparing for the worst because a group of FLDS members were resisting efforts to search the structure.
The Texas Department of Public Safety trooper and Schleicher County sheriff’s deputy confirmed that officials have entered the temple but said they had no word on whether anything occurred in the effort.
The incursion into the temple caps the three-day saga of the state’s Child Protective Services agency removing at least 183 women and children from the YFZ Ranch since Friday afternoon. Eighteen girls have been placed in state custody since a 16-year-old told authorities she was married to a 50-year-old man and had given birth to his child.
Saturday evening, ambulances were brought in, said Allison Palmer, who as first assistant 51st District attorney, would prosecute any felony crimes uncovered as part of the investigation inside the compound.
“In preparing for entry to the temple, law enforcement is preparing for the worst,” Palmer said Saturday evening. They want to have “medical personnel on hand in case this were to go in a way that no one wants.”
Apparently as a result of action Saturday night at the ranch, about 10:15 p.m. Saturday, a Schleicher County school bus unloaded another group of at least a dozen more women and children from the compound.
Although members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, have provided varying degrees of cooperation to the sheriff’s deputies and Texas Rangers searching the compound, all cooperation stopped once authorities tried to search the gleaming white temple that towers over the West Texas scrub, Palmer said.
“There may be those who would oppose (entry) by placing themselves between law enforcement and the place of worship,” Palmer said Saturday afternoon. “If an agreement cannot be reached … law enforcement will have to — as gently and peaceably as possible — make entry into that place.”
Sect members consider the temple, dedicated by then-leader of the sect Warren Jeffs in January 2005 and finished many months later, off-limits to those who are not FLDS members, said Palmer, who prosecutes felony cases in Schleicher County.
Palmer said she didn’t know the size or makeup of the group inside the temple.
The earlier refusal to provide access was even more disconcerting because CPS investigators have yet to identify the 16-year-old girl or her roughly 8-month-old baby among the dozens removed from the compound, Palmer said.
“Anytime someone says, ‘Don’t look here,’” she said, “it makes you concerned that’s exactly where you need to look.”
The girl told authorities in two separate phone calls a day apart that she was married to a 50-year-old man, Dale Barlow, who had fathered her child, Palmer said.
The joint raid included the Texas Rangers, CPS, Schleicher County and Tom Green County sheriff’s deputies and game wardens from the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife.
Although CPS and Department of Public Safety officials have described the compound’s residents as cooperative, Palmer disagreed.
“Things have been a little tense, a little volatile,” she said.
Authorities removed 52 children Friday afternoon and 131 women and children overnight Friday. About 40 of the children are boys, said CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.
No further children have been taken into state custody since Friday, when 18 girls were judged to have been abused or be at imminent risk for abuse. CPS has found foster homes for the girls, Meisner said, and will place them after concluding its investigation.
Meisner declined to comment on the fate of the 119 other children and said authorities were still searching the ranch for others Saturday evening.
“They’re in the process of looking,” she said. “They’re literally about halfway through.”
LOL. nice.
“FLDS group in Southern Utah. It was 1953 “
Arizona.
"The Kingstons aren't in the news as much these days, but back in the late 90's the family definitely was. And Shurtleff now confirms that a year and a half ago, 80 warrants had been issued by the courts and that he was "gearing up" to serve them. Shurtleff said, "We considered going in a similar, swap type - I guess for lack of a better word - operation into a church meeting and bar the doors and start collecting evidence." Shurtleff says the plan was to take dozens and dozens of DNA swabs from the Kingston family. According to the attorney general, the goal of this raid was to try and determine if any acts of incest had been committed. But in the end, Shurtleff decided against a Texas-style raid. Although, in talking about it, it almost seems like Utah's Attorney General sometimes wonders...what if? "We elected not to do that to try and work with their attorney. And, of course, the result of that was all our subjects disappeared, our targets disappeared and we didn't get the warrants served like we hoped to do," said Shurtleff."
Gee, maybe then we can ALL see how "beautiful" polygamy is.
Whatever, dude. Think what you like, I do not hate you. I pity you. I feel sorry for what I am afraid your eventual fate is. And I am, I admit, slightly repulsed by some of the beliefs I see some of you putting forth. But in the end, you are not important enough to me to hate.
Oh contraire 7, one of the biggest slights against mormonism is how it has hidden and spun its history in this regard. Further, I have cited teachings of the apostles and prophets of the era published in mormon literature, such as journal of discourses – hardly an anti publication
The references are plain, and you are right, it was not the norm. Neither was it the norm in early LDS. Only about 20 percent of marriages during that time were. There were very strict rules regarding who could and who couldn’t. Most were related to righteousness and not perverting the system though lasciviousness.
Well, at least you are not trying to throw that 3 to 5% figure at me. That 20 percent figure is low balled too, because that figure did not include the women
(http://www.pbs.org/mormons/peopleevents/e_polygamy.html).
But now we come you your rules. From 1835 through 1876 this was god’s revelation to mormonism:
"Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 247)
Yet, from 1832 on, smith began polygamous and let us not forget adulterous marriages – in opposition to this revelation. BTW, adultery was NOT sanctioned by Sect 132 when finally published. Smith spread this in secret to his inner circle because it was an ultimate expression of power, not prophecy, which we will see later.
Here’s something that you might find of interest. I posted this on the other thread.
I normally don’t go and comment on bulk postings from FAIR or FARMS, but in this case I’ll make an exception to counter some of the gross distortions (and you say I should learn from them?).
The mere idea that Plural Marriage as practiced, by both ancient biblical prophets or JS or BY was for the intent to sexual gratification is completely preposterous. …..snip….. Critics charge that Joseph Smith and successors pursued plural marriage from purely base motivations……snip,,,,. This way, you can imply that Joseph and his successors’ conduct were questionable on moral grounds, and driven by sexual appetites.
This first off is a straw man. I, nor others here have ever suggested that polygamy by the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were for sexual gratification. This may have been more true for some of the kings of Israel and Judah. I will hold to that charge against smith and young, et.al. But this goes beyond mere gratification – it goes to a raw expression of power over the lives of their followers. This power even extended to women who were currently married and living with their husbands. This is the POWER that a rapist holds over their victim.
Such a notion is usually accompanied by appeals to the claim that polygamy was unchristian,
Unchristian, this is made clear by Jesus Himself regarding marriage and divorce- Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (NIV Matt 19.8-9, pp. Mark 10.1-12)
The key thing to note here is that this argument fails if polygamy is acceptable! Jesus' point is that improper divorce does not nullify a marriage, and if the first marriage still stands, then a "second" marriage is adultery--and NOT simply polygamy! This is very clear. Jesus also eliminated the double standard; a man consorting with two women is as adulterous as a woman consorting with two men. (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html). I can also cite numerous other NT passages that echo Christ’s words.
. illegal,
Against the law – are you trying to say it WAS legal. The Illinois Anti-bigamy Law enacted February 12th, 1833 clearly stated that polygamy was illegal. Further, there was no time at which it was legal by federal standard in Utah either. And this all the while Article 12 said that mormons obeyed the law of the land.
cultish
See the use of sex as the expression of power over followers. That is a key component of a cult. See end of post too.
and the subject of lies
That is something about history, we have the witness of both sides of the story now. I’m sure you are able to read the actual, but if you have trouble finding these, let me know and I can cite the appropriate passages.
1844 Sermon given by Joseph On May 26, 1844 Joseph lied about practicing polygamy, despite claims to the contrary: (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 410-411)
1838 Interview with Joseph (at least 3 years after his first plural wife) In the July 1838 edition of the Elder's Journal ("Edited by Joseph Smith") Joseph Smith denied mormons could have more than one wife at the same time. (Elder's Journal, Vol 1, No. 3, p 43; reprinted in History of the Church Vol 3, p 38)
1844 Notice in Church-owned Newspaper
"TIMES AND SEASONS. CITY OF NAUVOO, THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 1, 1844.
"NOTICE.
"As we have lately been credibly informed, that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching Polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan. (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, page 423)
This is just a sampling 7 of the lies promulgated to cover up the practice of polygamy in mormonism.
What’s amazing is that I hear you guys slam Abraham, Jacob, ect. for being a adulterous cad instead of a chosen prophet of God. Incredible!
I am sure you have the computer saavy to provide posts to that effect, but I dare say you would be wrong in your statement. Put up referenced citation showing that we slammed them or retract.
George Bernard Shaw, certainly no Mormon, declared:
Now nothing can be more idle, nothing more frivolous, than to imagine that this polygamy had anything to do with personal licentiousness. If Joseph Smith had proposed to the Latter-day Saints that they should live licentious lives, they would have rushed on him and probably anticipated their pious neighbors who presently shot him.
This is an interesting strawman that ignores the facts of history as we now know it. That is why it was kept a secret for so long. (duh). Shaw fails to realize that Smith et al, wielded his power as the prophet and his followers believed god spoke to him. So his start was an extension of his ability to exert power over his followers. And like the POWER a rapist feels, it grew. Not that this was a well-kept secret. Part of the historical problem of mormons getting along with their neighbors was the mormon practice of trying to obtain additional wives from the non-mormon population. Non mormons rejected that (just like Shaw predicted – because they were not subjugated under Smith’s power). Thus the pious neighbors resisted.
Brigham Young matches the explanation proposed by Shaw. When instructed to practice plural marriage by Joseph, Brigham recalled that it “was the first time in my life that I had desired the grave.”
I guess that this is from the FAIR article? No citation given to confirm this very small snippet of young’s initial refusal. History shows that young didn’t let this stop him having IIRC, 60+ wives and more children than you could shake a stick at.
John Taylor had similar opinions:
Again, another un referenced citation. In Taylor’s case, Smith’s power play was made evident here :
"The Prophet went to the home of President Taylor, and said to him, 'Brother John, I WANT LEONORA.'" Taylor was stunned, but after walking the floor all night, the obedient elder said to Smith, "If GOD wants Leonora He can have her." Woodruff concluded: "That was all the prophet was after, to see where President Taylor stood in the matter, and said to him, Brother Taylor, I don't want your wife, I just wanted to know just where you stood." - Prophet Wilford Woodruff, John Mills Whitaker Journal, Nov. 1 1890
And this is just ONE instance where Smith made this demand.
President John Taylor also said: "Where did this commandment come from in relation to polygamy? It also came from God...When this commandment was given, it was so far religious, and so far binding upon the Elders of this Church that it was told them if they were not prepared to enter into it, and to stem the torrent of opposition that would come in consequence of it, the keys of the kingdom would be taken from them. When I see any of our people, men or women, opposing a principle of this kind, I have years ago set them down as on the high road to apostacy, and I do to-day; I consider them apostates, and not interested in this Church and kingdom" (Journal of Discourses 11:221)
Joseph knew these men intimately. He would have known their sensibilities. If it was all about sex, why push his luck with them? Why up the ante and ask them to marry polygamously? It would have been easier for him to claim the “duty” singularly, as prophet, and not insist that they join him.
As clear from the above from Taylor’s own history, it was an expression of Smith exercising his power. And that power enabled them to be kept in line and following his lead. Psychological abuse.
Furthermore, Joseph Smith would not permit other members’ sexual misconduct. For example, he refused to countenance John C. Bennett’s serial infidelities.
Bennett did not follow the party line and began a teaching of his own. He crossed Smith and challenged his power. Again, Smith had about 11 wives at this time, 9 IIRC were married to other men. Yet Smith preached against adultery and polygamy, all the while doing it. Smith should have faced the very same penalties as Bennett but didn’t – because he had the power.
If this is all about sex, why did Joseph humiliate and alienate Bennett, who he should have known he could trust to support him and help hide polygamy from critics, while risking the support of the Twelve by insisting they participate?
Pointed out above, it was the reflection of power over the followers that expressed its self sexually. Bennett challenged Smith’s power in the arena of demanding sex from the followers - and lost.
There were certainly easier ways to satisfy one’s libido. Historian Van Wagoner warns:
Again, another unreferenced citation, but as I said above, it wasn’t necessarily the libido, but it is POWER and sexual POWER is a significant manifestation. Van Wagoner is not as generous to Smith as you imply In his chapter titled "Between Friends and Family," he notes that "perhaps the most scandalous manifestation of Smith's lust for manly achievement was his inclination toward extra-martial romantic liaisons, which he believed were licensed by the Old Testament and countenanced by God's modern revelation" (Sidney Rigdon, Portrait of Religious Excess. pp.290-291). After polygamy spread from the elite inner circle it provided men with that typical male macho on a power trip. Of course it was dreary for the women, they were simply property and had to rely upon their faithfulness to (and favor of) their husband for access to heaven.
Historian B. Carmon Hardy observed:
Another uncited reference of a third or fourth hand account. However, google is my friend and one quickly sees that he is a mormon, and would not appear in a FAIR article if he didn’t tow the party line. I know if I were to provide such limited citation you and others would be all over me like white on rice.
One can read volumes of the early leaders’ public writings, extemporaneous sermons, and private journals.
Yes and when one does, it discovers the dark secrets of polygamy. It further shows the drift from the simple expression of power over followers and begins to show the libido effect taking in. See after a while the sexual thrill of power needs greater variants to maintain that feeling of power.
"Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp 129-130
Paul Peterson’s comment about the diaries of Joseph Smith resonates well in this regard:
Personal opinion that has nothing to do with fact. Mr. Peterson is a mormon – so his comments are anything but unbias.
In closing, you mentioned only allowed to a select few. This too is an example of cult conditioning. Why are temple recommends so sought after – because for the faithful, they were part of the requirements for godhood. Polygamy was demanded of mormons towards the end ( I can provide more citations if you wish on this subject) Your posting brings many of these point to the front. For the sake of brevity I’ll cut some of the detail out, but the full list can be found at:
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/refocus_cultcharacteristics.htm
1. Authoritarian pyramid structure with authority at the top
The Prophet, The 12, the 70.
“No man holds divine authority equal to or above the president of the Church. In his position he is pre-eminent! “Let us understand fully the clear identity of the president of the Church. He is the mouthpiece of God on earth for us today.” - “The Certain Sounds,” Church News, October 9, 1983, p. 24
2. Charismatic or messianic leader(s) (Messianic meaning they either say they are God OR that they alone can interpret the scriptures the way God intended.....the leaders are self-appointed.
The Living Prophet and Seer
3. Deception in recruitment and/or fund raising
Milk before meat, Lying for the Lord
4. Isolation from society -- the rest of the world is not saved, not Christian, not transformed (whatever) -- the only valid source of feedback and information is the group
"...if any man preach any other Gospel than that which I have preached, he shall be cursed; " - Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 366, also in History of the Church, v. 6, p.365
"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world." - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199
5. Use of mind control techniques
See earlier Smith’s demand for Taylor’s wife
Van Wagoner recounts the story of how the 37-year-old Smith attempted to persuade 15-year-old Helen Mar Kimball (the daughter of Heber C. Kimball) to be sealed to him as his wife. The young Kimball stated that Smith told her, "If you will take this step, it will insure your eternal salvation and exaltation and that of your father's household and all of your kindred" (Sidney Rigdon, Portrait of Religious Excess p.293). Helen would later regret that she acquiesced to Smith's proposal. "I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young and they deceived me by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it" (Sidney Rigdon, Portrait of Religious Excess p.294).
6. Mystical Manipulation: Seeks to promote specific patterns of behavior and emotion in such a way that it appears to have arisen spontaneously from within the environment, while it actually has been orchestrated totalist leaders claim to be agents chosen by God, history, or some supernatural force, to carry out the mystical imperative the "principles" (God-centered or otherwise) can be put forcibly and claimed exclusively, so that the cult and its beliefs become the only true path to salvation (or enlightenment)
Does anyone have a testimony? Praying about the bom and Smith being true and if you don’t get the same burning in the bosom sensation, you did something wrong.
7. Demand for Purity: The world becomes sharply divided into the pure and the impure, the absolutely good (the group/ideology) and the absolutely evil (everything outside the group) one must continually change or conform to the group "norm"; tendencies towards guilt and shame are used as emotional levers for the group's controlling and manipulative influences
Temple Recommends, ordinances and works.
8. Confession: Cultic confession is carried beyond its ordinary religious, legal and therapeutic expressions to the point of becoming a cult in itself sessions in which one confesses to one's sin are accompanied by patterns of criticism and self-criticism, generally transpiring within small groups with an active and dynamic thrust toward personal change
"Finally, at the end of each month, all branch presidents were to categorize the confessions they'd heard according to transgression, ranging from fornication/adultery, homosexuality, oral sex, masturbation, petting, abortion, and bestiality to stealing, and alcohol, tobacco, and drug abuse. These numbers were totaled on a special form and turned in to the mission presidency where they would be aggregated and sent to Church headquarters for further study. "There is no repentance without suffering," the branch presidents were instructed in their Branch President's Handbook. "You do your greatest service when you require the sinner to suffer."" - Elder Gary James Bergera, "What You Leave Behind: My Six Years at the MTC," (Dialog 21:1/51 Spring 1988).
9. Doctrine Over Person: If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the questions answered directly the underlying assumption is that doctrine/ideology is ultimately more valid, true and real than any aspect of actual human character or human experience and one must subject one's experience to that "truth" the experience of contradiction can be immediately associated with guilt one is made to feel that doubts are reflections of one's own evil when doubt arises, conflicts become intense
“I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.]. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet [Voices, generally, ‘go it, go it.’]. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.]. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.” - Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83; online at http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/Vol_01/refJDvol1-16.html
1/ D.Michael Quinn - Historian, and Former B.Y.U. Professor. He has written at least six articles for the "Ensign", and many for the Church owned journal - "B.Y.U. Studies". He is most well known for his extremely competent articles on Church sanctioned plural marriages after the manifesto of 1890. - EXCOMMUNICATED.
2/ Paul Toscano - Salt Lake Attorney. Also writer, together with his wife Margaret, of many articles, and a book entitled - "Strangers in Paradox." He spoke at the 1993 Sunstone Symposium and entitled his talk "All is Not Well in Zion: False Teachings of the True Church." - EXCOMMUNICATED.
3/ Lavina Fielding Anderson - Editor and writer of the Church published "Ensign" magazine from 1973 - 1981, prolific author, and compiler of recent events in the Church that she calls "spiritual abuse". - EXCOMMUNICATED.
4/ Maxine Hanks - Ardent feminist and editor of a book called "Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism". She has written and spoken extensively on the subject of Heavenly Mother. - EXCOMMUNICATED.
5/ Lynne Kanavel Whitesides - President of the Mormon Women's Forum. - DISFELLOWSHIPPED.
10. Dispensing of Existence: Since the group has an absolute or totalist vision of truth, those who are not in the group are bound up in evil, are not enlightened, are not saved, and do not have the right to exist; impediments to legitimate being must be pushed away or destroyed one outside the group may always receive their right of existence by joining the group; fear manipulation -- if one leaves this group, one leaves God or loses their salvation/transformation, or something bad will happen to them; the group is the "elite", outsiders are "of the world", "evil", "unenlightened", etc.
“Q. What does the Lord require of the people of the United States? A.He requires them to repent of all their sins and embrace the message of salvation, contained in the Book of Mormon, and be baptized into THIS church, and prepare themselves for the coming of the Lord.
Q. What will be the consequence if they do not embrace the Book of Mormon as a divine revelation?
A.They will be DESTROYED from the land and SENT DOWN TO HELL, like all other generations who have rejected a divine message!”
I’m sure other non-mormon could add to this list.
You don’t need to pity us nor be afraid of your internal boogie man whispers.
In fact as I read your last reply here you sure do vacillate like a double minded man!
1- think what you like
2- don’t hate you-
3- piy you
4- feel sorry fear your fate
5- repulsed by your beliefs
6- not important enough
Then POST those comments that have been made here 7. I've seen those terms directed against Smith and those in TX. So put up or retract.
I can't do your home work for you 7, go to the bible, see when hagar is sent away and with what, and then see when this occurred and compare. shhesh
Nope. I feel mostly ambivilance, if anything. I think you are wrong in the beliefs you espouse... and feel mildly sorry for what that would mean for you if my personal beliefs turn out to be true. But on the other hand, I am not going to lose sleep worrying about it. I have other concerns much more important to me than the choices you make.
And I missed it... :,(
Don't try to put words in my mouth 7. Mosaic covenant and laws fixed a culture that was different from Abraham's era. In the context of hagar, it was within the cultural norms, which were outside of the bible. However, where God didn't specify a particular behavior as sinful, there was tolerance. That went away with God's greater revelation (same God providing more guidance to a nation, not individual).
And if God is the same, he NEVER progressed to God.
I’d be interested in seeing the source for those accusations.
Those are pretty serious things to accuse someone of saying.
Who did it, when and where?
My faith has enable me to strive to walk a more up right life towards keeping my Lord commandments.
Many here have said it is not possible to do so and further more they feel grace covers all their lack of trying to do so!
So would I, because I know most of the main non mormon posters here would not call Abraham a sexed crazed pervert, etc. But I've made that accusation against J. Smith and the mob in TX. The connection - the mormons here are trying to defend their prophet's "revelation" and behavior by trying to make it legitimate (moral and legal) in the now. Forget the lies and deceptions and that it only lasted semi-officially 1832-1890, a 58 year window before the committee of gods decided that the US government was stronger than they were and had a reverse revelation that polygamy wasn't for the here and now. So whats a poor follower to do? Follow Joseph Smith or this other. Clearly folk in fLDS choose to follow the former. The latter left Section 132 on the books and IF the court cases that have taken the restrictions off homosexuality bloom into the polygamy movement (which is the natural course), LDS members will be stumbling all over themselves again, and the ones in the closet will be able to come out.
I am so glad to know WITHOUT A DOUBT that all that your try to paint Joseph Smith with your tainted brush shows what a misguided mind you have!
Joseph Smith was and is One of the Lord’s prophet and someday you too will know...
Looking forward to that day when it does occur!
He doesn't need any help resty, joey jumped right into the paint pots with both feet.
Joseph Smith was and is One of the Lord’s prophet and someday you too will know...
Riddle me this resty - why did joey lie about having multiple wives while at the same time teaching his followers that polygamy was forbidden???
Looking forward to that day when it does occur!
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Resty, joey won't bar me from heaven, in-spite of your vindictiveness and desire to see otherwise :)
Thanks for letting me know.
Well, I have never said it is not possible to walk a more upright life, but I do not believe it is possible for any of us to walk in perfection (at least not in this world). For that reason... for the shortcomings we will have, the Grace of the Lord and Christ will take up the slack.
More than nearly anything else you should fear the day that you come to believe you ARE walking in perfection, for on that day you are lost.
You are implying something I never implied!
My desire to be there is to see the look on your face or any others who have given the LDS on this side such a hard time!
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