Great comment.
Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith
Posted on 04/05/2008 6:01:28 PM PDT by Sub-Driver
Standoff emerges at polygamist retreat
8 minutes ago
Ambulances are being sent to a polygamist compound in West Texas as authorities prepare "for the worst" in a conflict with members of the compound.
Prosecutor Allison Palmer says sect leaders Saturday refused to let authorities search a temple for a 16-year-old member who reported being physically abused.
Palmer tells the San Angelo Standard-Times that medical workers are being sent "in case this were to a go in a way that no one wants."
She says that law enforcers are "preparing for the worst."
A search warrant authorized troopers to enter the retreat run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. They are looking for evidence of a marriage between the girl and a 50-year-old man.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
The government chooses how to spend its resources devoted to prosecuting crimes. Basically, they hit the ones that make good examples. But they shouldn’t bother with victim-less crimes like bigamy until they’re finished taking care of all of the actual crime. They don’t prosecute bigamy consistently, but rather when they want to throw the book.
That's the most intelligent thing that's been said on this entire thread.
L
My great-great grandfather had two wives and they were living in southern Idaho. What the hell does that have to do with Romney’s family tree?
Thank you, L!
"Jeff's people"--fLDS use the same "Scripture" LDS now deny--to justify polygamy--D&C 132. "Jeff's people"--fLDS folk--are in fact descendents of LDS folk.
"Jeff's people"--fLDS--claim to be LDS just like LDS people claim to be LDS. "Jeff's people"--Mormons--claim to be Mormons just like Mormons claim to be Mormons.
As we have seen on dozens of FReeper threads & thousands of media articles & other online discussion boards & chat rooms, Mormons constantly tell Christians, "Who are you to say who's a 'Christian' or not? We're 'Christians,' too?" So would you mind informing all of us how it is that LDS can tell Christians, "Hey, no bumping us out of bounds" but now LDS can tell fLDS "Hey, we're bumping you out as Mormons?" (Isn't that a wee bit inconsistent?)
...not affiliated with the LDS.
The fLDS are also the spiritual descendents of LDS. They were once "one." At best, affiliation-wise, Joseph Smith once (1827) tried to join a Methodist church membership class. (About 7 years after his so-called "vision" of unnamed personages telling him to join NO church). He at one time tried to be "one" with the Christians. My point? The fLDS are more "Mormon" than Smith is "Christian."
They have already had several convictions of statutory rape in other states after coercing girls as young as 13 to marry and have sex with mostly older members of the church. Girls that ran away were caught and brought back. Those that said they didn’t want to marry were informed they would be kicked out, with nowhere to go, and that they, and their family, will all burn in hell.
I’d say that, given the proven history of systematic sexual abuse of the young girls, the authorities have to take the charge of the 16-year old very seriously.
That doesn’t condone another Waco outcome, but what happens in the FLDS is not going to support arguments opposing laws against polygamy and establishing ages of consent.
Obligatory post expressing outrage before I am accused of supporting Mormonism
Great comment.
Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith
I see this as a tough situation. Here we have the Constitution which says:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Now, considering the time period in which they were working, they were looking at a whole different situation in regards to free speech and churches. Clearly one of the things they wanted to do was force the government to not be able to regulate religion. No membership required, no making it illegal to join another church. Just like the free speech clause was meant to protect criticism of the government.
What I don't think was intended was that these clauses be used as a cloak to protect all kinds of immoral, illegal, or other heinous behavior. Just like the free speech clause has been twisted to protect pornography, the freedom to exercise has been twisted to protect wrong behavior. So you get situations like muslims taxi-cab drivers who refuse to give blind passengers or those carrying alcohol a ride, you get muslims who claim sharia law is part of their religion and so MUST be permitted to happen. It opens the door for the practice of FGM and honor killings. It protects deranged lunatics like the phelps clan who are manipulating people by misusing the clause. It can allow anyone, anywhere claim that they are a church, or religion, and tie the hands of the authorities regarding clearly illegal or immoral behavior.
The problem then arises of the definition of what is a church or religion and who gets to define it. Does the individual? Does the organization itself? Do other churches? (And we know where that would lead). Does the government? (mega cringe)
Now Scripture is clear that rulers and government have been established by God and submission to that authority should happen.
So the conflict comes in where the *church* has practices that violate the laws of the country and often clear teaching of Scripture itself, and the Article in the Constitution that protects the free exercise thereof.
To the credit of the government, they have been aware of this group for some time now and trying to do something about them. They received a call from a girl alleging abuse of herself, clearly a cry for help. They got a search warrant as also required of them. She and her child and *husband* have disappeared. I, for one, fear for her safety and the thought of retaliation for her actions.
So does the government have responsibility to protect its citizenry? Can its hands be tied from doing that because the behavior is claimed to be religious? Can other private citizens take any action? Is it better to hold to the interpreted letter of the Constitution by some allow illegal or immoral behavior or abuse to continue because it's claimed to be religious, or stop it to protect your citizens?
If you can figure out any answers to this, let me know.
As far as the women and children being *forced* to leave, the article is totally silent on that issue and I'm sure that in that group, there will be differences of opinion. These are people who are not used to thinking for themselves, so if someone tells them what to do, they would not have the wherewithal to refuse.
OTOH, the link to the wiki article states that although some women hate the situation, they stay because of their children. As a mother, I can totally identify with that. There is NO WAY that I would ever consider abandoning my children to be left in a horrible situation like that. If I could not take them with me, I would not leave.
There is the chance that these women left voluntarily. This might be the first opportunity they've ever had to get out with their kids and may have jumped at the chance. There is likely to be those who felt coerced.
Detaining people for questioning is a common practice. I never considered its Constitutionality, though. Again, they were not arrested, charged, or pronounced guilty. They simply left, by the busload, because of the numbers of people involved, plus I don't expect they had other means of transportation.
I sure hope this does not turn into another waco and I foresee some real legal battles because of the whole Constitutionality of the situation.
All that being said, I'll be back later.
“Colofornian’s people”-—are in fact descendent's of Neanderthal folk. I see that some have evolved further than others.
>>”So would you mind informing all of us how it is that LDS can tell Christians, “Hey, no bumping us out of bounds” but now LDS can tell fLDS “Hey, we're bumping you out as Mormons?” (Isn't that a wee bit inconsistent?)”<<
No it isn't inconsistent. Perhaps it's because Polygamy became illegal and the Mormons didn't want to be affiliated with criminals. Think about it. FYI: Mormons are Christians.
Why do you hate Mormons so much? Did some cute Mormon girl turn you down in High School or what? Perhaps she wanted to date within her own species, you know, her own ‘descendent's’. Do you know any LDS folks?
What you are saying makes no sense whatsoever.
BWAAAHAAHAHHAAHAAHAHAA!!!
That's hilarious!
This situation represents the “slippery slope” we so often warn people about. We must not allow our government to drag us down the dangerous path to Totalitarianism “for our own good” or the “good of the masses”.
>>”So does the government have responsibility to protect its citizenry? Can its hands be tied from doing that because the behavior is claimed to be religious?”<<
Yes, of course the government has the duty to protect it's citizenry, IF they come armed with the facts and not an anonymous phone call.
I have no doubt that women are treated crappy in these FLDS compounds. Please note that I am NOT defending FLDS behavior or it's former leader, Warren Jeffs. Do I think he is guilty of rape? Absolutely not. He didn't rape anyone. He only performed a fake ‘marriage’ that led to a young couple having intercourse. He is, however, guilty of other crimes against his ‘flock’.
With that said, I have seen kids as young as 5-6 years old handling rattlesnakes and Water Moccasins in documentaries about Fundamentalist Pentecostals. We sure haven't heard about any government intervention to save the kids from harm and the very real potential for death that exists. There is documented concrete proof of these religious wackos putting their kids in danger and the government just looks the other way. I just don't get it. It's like we're all living in a parallel universe.
Why aren't the Mormon-haters calling for an investigation of the Amish, the pedophile Catholic Priests, the Fundamentalist Pentecostal snake-handlers and/or those religions that speak in tongues as they roll around on the floor with reptiles? Don't even get me started on Faith Healers! Let's be fair. If they're going to go after one group, go after them all. Now do you see how inconsistent their behavior is?
It is a hard call, I agree. But, I can also be angry about all the Mormon-bashing that's been going on this past year by people that have no clue what they are talking about in regards to the Mormon lifestyle. This is not directed at you. I hope you know that.
It will be interesting to follow this story through to the end and hopefully it will be a peaceful one. We know what happens when our Police State cops get themselves whipped into a frenzy....innocent people and babies die.
Keep in touch. I have nothing but great respect for you and harbor no ill feelings whatsoever.
I don’t suppose you’ll share your faith with us, would you? Shouldn’t you be getting ready for Mass instead of posting idiotic religous attacks on others?
These people teach that you must accept polygamy or you will be lost to hell.
They marry these girls off at the age of 14 and up. Mothers will force their own daughters to marry old men.
Very few of these relationships are consensual.
Problem is they have to get the girls when they are very young. The older the get, the more independent they might become.
I'm not Cathlolic.
Everything I need to know about mass, inertia & velocity I learned in physics class.
Polygamy is already illegal.
So you won’t reveal your religion, yet you attack others for theirs. Interesting.
Did you skip class the day they covered hot air?
I will say these people and Warren Jeffs are really stupid.
What in the world would make them think that Texas of all states, would let them get away with this stuff?
Utah will let these pervs live all over the place, not Texas.
Wow you are full of misinformation. Amish have problems with sexual abuse just like any group of people. And when they are caught they go to jail. They don't live in compounds marrying off 14 year old girls. Catholic priests were investigated and there was a huge scandal in the press about that. You say these people aren't Mormons yet you sure like to defend them.
“The problem here is that these are not adults entering into consensual relationships.”
“These people teach that you must accept polygamy or you will be lost to hell.”
“They marry these girls off at the age of 14 and up. Mothers will force their own daughters to marry old men.”
“Very few of these relationships are consensual.”
“Problem is they have to get the girls when they are very young. The older the get, the more independent they might become.”
What are you complaining about? That’s exactly the way they do it in Africa, which explains why you are voting for your Socialist buddy Osamabama (as your tag line indicates)!
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