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Faith, Medicine Collide, And A Young Girl Dies (Parents chose to pray rather than get medical help)
JSOnline ^ | March 26, 2008 | Bill Glauber

Posted on 03/27/2008 1:39:08 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin

Children don't often die like this in the United States.

But on Sunday in the Town of Weston, near Wausau, WI, 11-year-old Madeline Kara Neumann died of diabetic ketoacidosis, a treatable though serious condition of type 1 diabetes in which acid builds up in the blood.

Neumann's parents said they didn't know she had diabetes. They didn't take her to a doctor. They prayed for healing.

The common course of medical treatment for the disease involves injections of insulin and intravenous fluids, said Omar Ali, assistant professor of pediatric endocrinology at the Medical College of Wisconsin in Wauwatosa.

"A fatal outcome would be unusual these days in the United States," Ali said.

The death of the girl has shocked the community and raised profound moral and legal questions over when medicine should trump faith, especially when the life of a child is at stake.

There is no indication authorities knew of the girl's dire medical condition before her death. Local police are investigating the case and have said they could forward their results to the Marathon County district attorney's office. The Marathon County Department of Social Services has also launched an investigation.

Authorities said Wednesday that the Neumanns' three other children - ages 13, 14 and 17 - were being interviewed by Social Services and law enforcement and were being checked by a physician.

"The reaction is sadness, and I think a little bit (of) amazement," said Dean Zuleger, administrator for the Village of Weston. "I haven't seen a lot of what I would see to be knee-jerk judgment. There is a general sense of grief and sadness. Because I know the family a bit there is a great deal of concern for their well-being."

Zuleger said the girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, are well-known in the community. They moved there from California two years ago and run a popular coffee shop.

"I probably had seen the little girl sometime during the winter," Zuleger said. "She appeared to be a vibrant little 11-year-old. I know some folks who were at some of the birthday parties said she appeared to be fine. I don't know how the onset of this diabetes affects kids. By all indications based on our knowledge of the family they aren't weird or peculiar or fanatic or anything like that. Everything appeared to be normal."

Reached by telephone at her home, Leilani Neumann said the family did not know 11-year-old Kara had the disease before her death.

"It was something that came on suddenly," she said. "She went to birthday parties recently, she went sledding for two hours, she was perfectly fine until the last few days. We ask if people can pray for us and give us our privacy as we grieve our daughter."

Leilani Neumann told The Associated Press that the family does not belong to any organized religion or faith but believes in the Bible and said that healing comes from God.

There were also two postings under her name on the Web site AmericasLastDays.com, which is operated by Unleavened Bread Ministries, an evangelical ministry that focuses on the apocalypse.

'They aren't crazy people'

It was Sunday at 2:33 p.m. when Everest Metro Police said they first learned of the girl's condition. A call came into the dispatch center from a family relative who lived in California, said Police Chief Dan Vergin.

Vergin said the relative notified authorities "that the child was ill, and due to religious reasons the family would not take the child to the hospital."

Officers were dispatched to the home, and a second call - this time from the family's residence - was placed to 911, Vergin said. The caller said the girl was not breathing and did not have a pulse, Vergin said.

Officers and emergency service personnel went into the house and found the girl in a family-room area lying on a futon mattress on the floor, Vergin said.

"The mother and father were praying over her at that time," Vergin said.

The girl was pronounced dead at St. Clare's Hospital and through an autopsy it was determined she had diabetic ketoacidosis, Vergin said.

"The doctor who did the autopsy and others have said she would have been showing signs for about six months, and she would have been symptomatic, very thirsty, lots of urination, dry skin for the last week," he said. "They felt she would have been quite ill."

Vergin said that during an interview with detectives the parents said "they believed even though they knew she was ill, they had enough faith and prayer that God would heal her."

"They said it was the course of action they would take again," Vergin said. "They firmly believe even if they had taken her to a doctor, if this was the time God had chosen for her to die, she would die regardless of medical interference."

"This is not their defense, they aren't crazy people," Vergin added.

Difficult issues

Vergin said the death of the girl brings up difficult issues.

"At what point do religious beliefs take over for medical help? And the flip of the coin is at what point are the parents responsible for the health and welfare of their children," he said. "These people truly believed their prayer and faith would heal their daughter. They have no question about that."

Police and courts have grappled with such issues for decades.

Norman Fost, professor of bioethics and pediatrics at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health in Madison, said the First Amendment to the Constitution gives citizens the right to practice religion.

"A Jehovah's Witness can refuse life-saving blood transfusion based on their religious belief," he said. "They're protected. But they can't refuse it for their child . . . the First Amendment extends to their own behavior but not their children's."

Under Wisconsin statutes, parents can't be accused of abuse or neglect if the sole reason for the injury is that they relied on prayer, Fost said. But Robyn S. Shapiro, an attorney who is professor of bioethics and director of the Bioethics Center at the Medical College of Wisconsin, said abuse or neglect can include "failure to appropriately respond or supply medical care to your kid."

"What else did they do, what else did they know about, what did they see, why didn't they figure it out?" Shapiro said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; US: Wisconsin
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1 posted on 03/27/2008 1:39:12 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

Could parents should be prosecuted? Should they be prosecuted? I dunno. I can see two sides to this, but I’m leaning toward the parents needing to be severely punished.


2 posted on 03/27/2008 1:46:14 PM PDT by KoRn (CTHULHU '08 - I won't settle for a lesser evil any longer!)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin
"But Leilani Neumann said her daughter, a straight A student, was in good health until recently..."We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said.

It's possible they really didn't know she was this sick or that she had treatable diabetes. Lots of people, religious or non-religious, don't go and don't have their kids go to the doctor unless they're clearly sick. That in itself is not irresponsibility --- in fact, it's the way most people live.

With 20/20 hindsight in these kinds of cases people can say "the kid had diabetes" or "the kid had meningitis" or "the kid had a brain aneurysm" --- but sometimes, the kid just seems tired and you really don't know. Not everybody has typical flashing-red-lights symptoms.

It could be they were negligent, but maybe not. More facts needed. Don't condemn these parents before the jury is in.

3 posted on 03/27/2008 1:47:21 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle." - Philo of Alexandria)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

If God alone has the power to heal, then why were doctors created?

This child died needlessly because two parents couldn’t take their blinders off and look at the whole picture.

There’s always a time for faith and prayer - but there’s always a time for common sense too.


4 posted on 03/27/2008 1:48:20 PM PDT by MplsSteve
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To: Diana in Wisconsin
"They said it was the course of action they would take again," Vergin said.

After reading that statement there's no way I could support their decision. In effect they have said if another of their children become seriously ill they'd not seek medical attention to save them.

5 posted on 03/27/2008 1:55:00 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin
Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime: the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.

Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough For Love (1973)

It was the parents' stupidity that caused this child's death. And they probably thought they were doing "god's will" or some such foolishness. Idiots!
6 posted on 03/27/2008 1:57:00 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: KoRn

It doesn’t sound like the child was ill very long, faith and science can go together, I mean you can pray for healing and still seek out medical advice. God heals people all the time using physicians. I think the purpose of this article, the way it is written is to bash religion and show how “simple minded” people of faith are. I would have to have more details to know whether or not the should be prosecuted.


7 posted on 03/27/2008 1:59:18 PM PDT by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Agreed.. A guy (40-something) I work wasn’t feeling well at work one day and he kept brushing it off, just thought he was sick and would get through the day..

Well he started getting pale and clammy skin and someone finally called for help (and an ambulance against his will), it turns out he had diabetes and never knew it. He almost died.


8 posted on 03/27/2008 2:00:40 PM PDT by Onerom99
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To: MplsSteve
If God alone has the power to heal, then why were doctors created? This child died needlessly because two parents couldn’t take their blinders off and look at the whole picture. There’s always a time for faith and prayer - but there’s always a time for common sense too.

Note that the disciple Luke was in fact a physician himself. Faith and the practice of medicine are not at all incompatable, in fact they compliment each other. Was there any malicious intent on the part of the parents? At first glance one would have to say 'absolutely not', and their lack of judgment will haunt them the rest of their days.

On the other hand, I would be willing to bet you a sizable amount of money that the number of people dying from the failure of Christians to seek medical care is far exceeded by the number of people who die every year due to the malpractice and poor judgment of some of those medical professionals.
9 posted on 03/27/2008 2:01:02 PM PDT by mkjessup (This year's presidential choices: "Speak No Evil, See No Evil, and Evil")
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To: jazusamo

Yep. That was a the deal-breaker for me, too. They had my sympathy right up until that point...

However, I rarely go to the doctor, either. And not for religious reasons; I just come from good genetic stock. ;)

The last time I had to take a full exam was three years ago for insurance purposes. The doctor could find absolutely nothing wrong with me...and told me I was the healthiest middle-aged female she’d ever examined. (Fresh air, sunshine and clean livin’ does a woman wonders.)

Maybe I should sell my cells for cloning? Nah...one of me is more than enough for this world; and my critics heartily agree, LOL!


10 posted on 03/27/2008 2:01:44 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: KoRn

Yes. If not, where do we draw the the line? How about a toddler who falls into a pool or river, and the parents just stand next to the water and pray while the child drowns?


11 posted on 03/27/2008 2:06:23 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: mkjessup

Excellent Post.

I agree that the parents actions did not have a malicious intent. Rather, it seems more like negliegence born of ignorance.

Considering that the parents told the police chief that they’d pursue the same course of action again leads me to believe that they don’t grasp what they did wrong.

Sometime down the road, they may understand what they did - but for now, their stance is worrisome.


12 posted on 03/27/2008 2:06:48 PM PDT by MplsSteve
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To: Coyoteman

Yep. This was all the rage on the local Talk Radio circuit today.

One caller made a great analogy. He asked, “If they prayed to their COUCH or to a TREE in their yard, versus praying to God over this, would they be any less guilty of her death?”

I think not. However, I am a firm believer in the Power of Prayer, but in the sense that you pray for God to “guide the surgeons hand” or to release your loved one from horrible suffering, etc. God tends to work THROUGH others to help us, in my experience. :)


13 posted on 03/27/2008 2:09:16 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: mkjessup
On the other hand, I would be willing to bet you a sizable amount of money that the number of people dying from the failure of Christians to seek medical care is far exceeded by the number of people who die every year due to the malpractice and poor judgment of some of those medical professionals.

Not to mention the million babies a year who die because their 'mothers' do seek 'medical care'.

14 posted on 03/27/2008 2:10:09 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

LOL! I side with you there, I absolutely hate going to a doc and I have some problems.

The issue here is that they don’t know how sick their kid is and they just pray and hope for the best. If they want to deny themselves medical care that’s one thing, they’re adults but they shouldn’t put their kids lives in jeopardy, IMO.


15 posted on 03/27/2008 2:12:15 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.org | DefendOurTroops.org)
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To: jazusamo
"In effect they have said if another of their children become seriously ill they'd not seek medical attention to save them."

If that's actually what they're saying, then they are very much in the wrong. But if they're saying they didn't know she was sick? That calls for a different verdict.

Again, the key questions are "What should they have known? What did they know? And when did they know it?"

16 posted on 03/27/2008 2:15:35 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle." - Philo of Alexandria)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin; jazusamo
FTA: "By all indications based on our knowledge of the family they aren't weird or peculiar or fanatic or anything like that. Everything appeared to be normal." ... "It was something that came on suddenly," she said. "She went to birthday parties recently, she went sledding for two hours, she was perfectly fine until the last few days."

My father was like you, Diana. He was never in a hospital, never saw a doctor for anything until he was 86 years old. Just a healthy old guy. Then the last 6 years of his life his health took some deep plunges, and he died at 92.

But he raised my brother and myself the same way. Oh, we got the obligatory shots --- anything legally required --- but other than that, we just never went to the doctor, and never needed to. If we were feeling a sick, we went to bed for a day or two and had lots of Mama's soup. That was it. (I'd say "Jewish penicillin" but he was an atheist and my mother was Catholic!)

17 posted on 03/27/2008 2:24:57 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle." - Philo of Alexandria)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

the family said “healing comes from God”

But some people need to realize God’s healing comes in many forms. (Doctors, medication, surgery etc...)

Our minister told the story of a man whose town was experiencing a 100 year flood. Everyone was told to evacuate to higher ground but one man stayed saying “God will take care of me.” As the flood waters reached his house a neighbor paddled up in a canoe and told him to get in but the man replied “no, God will take care of me.” When the flood waters reached the second floor of his house rescue personnel came by in a boat and told the man to evacuate with them. The man refused, saying “God will take care of me.” As the waters continued to rise, the man had to climb onto his roof. A helicopter flew over, dropped a line to the man, but again he refuse to leave, saying “God will take care of me.” Then the rushing waters swept the man off his roof and as he was drowning he cried out to God “Why didn’t you save me? I believed in you and prayed.”

God responded “What do you want? I sent 2 boats and a helicopter!”


18 posted on 03/27/2008 2:26:12 PM PDT by goodonevirginia
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

We covered this yesterday. These parents were horrible and stupid, and should probably lose custody of any other children.

But...should they have been forced by the state to medical care that they don’t agree with. Where will THAT end?

We tackle the tough issues at FR. I am not sure what is right here.


19 posted on 03/27/2008 2:34:34 PM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

With all due respect…hogwash.

One tries everything there is to save something or somebody.

Short version of a very successful story for me:

Desperate situation at the top…lawyers.

At the bottom…a witch doctor.

A person was causing problems for us three years ago.

No longer.

He dropped dead in front of the very door of the apartment he was causing a problem at 1:30 am.

Granted, he did have a health problem, but not to drop dead at the door where he was causing problems.


20 posted on 03/27/2008 2:41:33 PM PDT by GatĂșn(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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